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welcome to the show I'm Martyn Willis

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your host hey after a new headset we're

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gonna see how this works you know I've

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been trying to find something that would

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work better for so I don't have to keep

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leaning up to the mic all the time and I

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had I had dr. Michael masters on who had

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a headset that sounded great so I

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ordered it it's here

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hopefully it'll sound as good as it does

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when he's using it also other people are

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using the same mic in the trade so we'll

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see how this works out

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my guest tonight is dr. Bruce Maccabee

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he'll be coming up in a little bit first

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filling in for Alejandro is the one and

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only Lee Spiegel he'll be on in just a

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second I want to say that next week I

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have as you know longtime listeners

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especially I've always figured out a way

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to do a show even when traveling

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overseas or anywhere but this next week

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it's absolutely impossible and I have to

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support my lavish lifestyle I guess I am

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going to be working at a location on an

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estate where there's absolutely no

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internet and just barely a one or two

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bars signal and I have to stay there at

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the house for the entire week next week

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so I'm not going to be available for a

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show however I already have set up a

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first time to YouTube is an interview

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back in 2013 and or even earlier I

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believe yep

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2013 I have an interview set up that you

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will find most enjoyable and that's also

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going to be a rerun for all of the

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longtime podcast listeners and

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supporters the free show and the member

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show is all going to be that speaking of

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members a number of people have told me

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they have had trouble that they do not

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want to use PayPal and I guess patreon

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has other ways of people supporting a

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show so I have a membership now on

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patreon I already have a supporter thank

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you Chris he's also the one that

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strongly suggested I do it

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so that is now available the link is

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right on podcast UFO calm if anyone

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wants to support through a patreon and I

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will

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you the link and the free I mean the

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access to the till the to our shows and

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a complete guide on how to set that up

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with your media player so again where

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you can support the show through our

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website or you drop down menu there

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under support the show or through

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patreon and anyway thank you all for

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supporting if you can't support the show

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I still appreciate you listening and

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with that we'll start out with our

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fill-in news guy today Lee Spiegel hey

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Lee welcome to the show

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well hello Martin I'm very happy to be

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your current fill-in guy yes thanks for

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filling in but you also I was inviting

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you on anyway because you have up you

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know you want to talk about your new

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show coming up so let's do that first

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let's just talk about your your show

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coming up the time where someone can

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watch it and and all the info you can

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give us well now are we talking about

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video or oh yeah other I know no let's

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talk about okay we'll talk about the

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heart later yeah okay well you know I

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I'm actually I'm looking for you much

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forward to joining you and the kgr a

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family when I premiere my new radio show

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next week it's it's right around the

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corner and it's called edge of reality

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radio and it's kind of a kind of a half

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premiere and half resurrection of mine

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my previous talk show that was called

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coincidentally edge of reality

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it first hit the airwaves nearly 40

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years ago on NBC radio in New York and

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and wow a lot has happened since then in

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in the whole field of UFO studies hmm

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and and as you know from all the work

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that you've done the people you've

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interviewed we're at a point right now

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historically where the ridicule factor

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has diminished a great deal people

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aren't as afraid of reporting strange

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things that they've seen in the day or

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night sky plus the way that the media

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reports

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encounters that's evolved to the point

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where it's not just kind of relegated to

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a news item that's saved for the very

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end of the 11 o'clock news each night

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that seems to be a thing of the past I'm

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happy to note that you're absolutely

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right about that and it makes I think I

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talked about it last week I'm not so

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embarrassed to actually talk about it in

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my when I'm out and about and and

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actually doing my professional life I'm

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not so worried about it anymore oh

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that's an interesting point because

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there are many people who have other

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things that they do for a living and the

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UFO part of their world is is almost

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secondary and and they make many cases

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it should be because people need to

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actually live and earn a living right

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but it doesn't mean that they can't be

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serious

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investigators of something that

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seriously needs to be investigated and

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you know that you know much closer than

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most people I know huh that's right

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that's right so let's see they can catch

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it right here actually if you're

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listening live on KCRA right now you can

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catch it there and it's Thursday

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evenings again what is it 8 to 10 is

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that yes edge of reality radio will

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premiere Thursday August 1st from 8 to

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10 p.m. Eastern Time on kera and and

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just so that you and your audience knows

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each week won't just be about UFOs

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there's a lot of road to cover him and

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what I like to call the the overlapping

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world of science and unexplained

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phenomena we're going to look at things

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like ghosts the possibility of life

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after death the scientific search for

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all the realities and universes one of

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my favorites

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time travel hmm strange creatures

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reported from around the world and you

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know recent advances in what we now know

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about human consciousness hmm and

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there's a lot going on with that kind of

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research so I'm I'm looking forward to

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just taking the listeners on an

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eye-opening it

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version of the wonders of the world that

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are all around us because I'll learn in

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the same process as the listeners will

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that's why that's why I do this Martin

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is because I don't know everything about

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all of these things this is a great idea

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it's a great ability for me to learn as

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much as I hope to bring to the audience

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so this is great for all of us I think I

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totally I totally understand although I

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will say how many years have I doing

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this show eight eight years um just

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about eight years I know just as much as

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I did in the beginning about your folks

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you know I don't I don't want to say

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that I know anything more about UFOs

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however I will say that I've heard in

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the eight years that I've been doing

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this show I've heard some amazing things

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that enough to keep me going and it's

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it's actually still exciting for me and

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you know just to listen to you know even

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if I don't agree with what someone is

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saying it's still very interesting to me

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to hear people's thoughts about the

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possibilities of what we may be seeing I

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think it's all fascinating listen I

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think you're wrong okay

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yeah but only only on one point I think

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you Martin Willis you do know more now

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than you did when you first started

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reporting in this and and what I mean by

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that is to people who who say to me oh I

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can't believe that stuff you're

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interested in I remember I'm a real

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scoffer at that kind of stuff my

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response to them is how much personal

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time have you looked into this

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particular subject how much time have

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you either read books or watched

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anything else besides ancient aliens on

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TV I mean what what have you done for

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yourself to give yourself a valid

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opinion on the subject and for this in

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this case UFOs and people will say well

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I really haven't done much and yeah I

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catch a couple things on TV and I have

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no problem saying to people Martin in

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that case you don't have a valid opinion

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on UFOs because

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you haven't spent the time to create an

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opinion you're just going by what you've

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maybe instinctively or what you just

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believe inside people want to believe in

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something everybody wants to believe in

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something but that's okay to have a

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personal belief in something but isn't

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it better to know that your opinion is

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based on what you've really found out on

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your own and that will make the water

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cooler conversation with you much more

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interesting the next day you know I do

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agree with that that part of it

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absolutely like if I'm out and about and

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the conversation happens to come up I do

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have plenty to talk about that's for

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sure without sure without a doubt and if

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you're just listening to the this show

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that means that you probably know more

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about it in that way that Lee is talking

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about than the average Joe really I

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would hope so

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yeah I I hope that people are really

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interested in what you present what I

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present when our friend Alejandra

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presents we have other colleagues who

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are on KCRA who are doing the same thing

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they just want to present information

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that will that will kind of enlarge the

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scope of the information for for the

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listeners that that's really what we're

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here for is to just help people to learn

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into and to maybe be entertained along

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the way maybe be be mystified along the

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way I have I haven't been mystified by

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many things over the past 40 years and

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and I love telling people about them I'm

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sure you have too yeah yeah yeah all

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right so you also want to talk about

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what James was going on as far as the

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the it's a called the phenomenon is that

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name well you know a lot of new

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television series have emerged as you

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know yeah including the recent History

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Channel show called unidentified right

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inside America's UFO investigation and

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they had a lot of things there that I

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felt were really well presented to the

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audience you know we now know in fact

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that there have been

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Congressional meetings with military

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pilots about their own close encounters

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with unidentified aircraft so over the

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last couple of years as you know I've

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been working on a new provocative UFO

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documentary and yes you're right it's

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going to be called the phenomenon I've

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been doing this with filmmaker James Fox

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this will be kind of the third film in

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his trilogy his UFO trilogy the first

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two films were out of the blue and that

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was followed by I know what I saw and

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now we're doing the phenomenon and we

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have just in the last few days I will

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say we've signed a contract with a major

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media distribution company and we're

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looking to have our film released to the

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public initially as a theatrical release

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by the end of the year we're very happy

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about this Wow so it actually will be

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out in theaters you're talking about

273
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that's that's amazing yeah

274
00:12:04,260 --> 00:12:02,500
that's my understanding and I've been

275
00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:04,270
I've been pressing James for more

276
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:07,360
information and it appears that part of

277
00:12:10,139 --> 00:12:07,930
the deal

278
00:12:13,010 --> 00:12:10,149
will be to see how well will it do in

279
00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:13,020
theaters and you know I'll be honest

280
00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:15,220
documentaries don't do all that well in

281
00:12:20,010 --> 00:12:18,220
theaters right people aren't to

282
00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:20,020
to buy popcorn and coke to watch a

283
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:23,260
documentary in a theater so we're really

284
00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:27,730
hoping that this has some far reaching

285
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:30,520
out to the public so that it it kind of

286
00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:32,470
Grox with them and people will resonate

287
00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:35,800
with this but part two or this would be

288
00:12:41,130 --> 00:12:38,649
well beyond going to a theater maybe to

289
00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:41,140
get this thing on a place like Netflix

290
00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:43,240
or the History Channel or other places

291
00:12:48,510 --> 00:12:46,300
where it'll have a bigger outreach to

292
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,520
people we just want as many people to

293
00:12:52,620 --> 00:12:50,079
see this because we've gathered some

294
00:12:54,630 --> 00:12:52,630
great exclusive information and

295
00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:54,640
interviews that won't be seen in other

296
00:13:00,930 --> 00:12:57,370
documentaries right right and you know I

297
00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:00,940
got to say I saw when Jeremy corbels bob

298
00:13:05,220 --> 00:13:03,910
lazar film went out it was in theaters

299
00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:05,230
in at least LA and there were people

300
00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:07,350
waiting in line to see it I was

301
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:10,180
surprised to see you know that was maybe

302
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:12,010
a test theater or something like that

303
00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:15,610
it's now on Netflix but and you know

304
00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:17,860
listeners of course know my mixed

305
00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:18,840
feelings about Bob

306
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:23,580
sar but still that that I was surprised

307
00:13:29,060 --> 00:13:26,850
at the the turnout you know for that

308
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:29,070
well well I tell you I but I believe

309
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:30,480
it's my understanding that the

310
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:32,850
distribution company that did all the

311
00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:36,210
promotional for that film is the same

312
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:38,520
company that's working with us now and

313
00:13:43,070 --> 00:13:40,970
I'm very happy to hear that

314
00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:43,080
because you need the right kind of

315
00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:44,910
promotion behind you to get the public

316
00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:46,440
to realize that there's something

317
00:13:49,970 --> 00:13:47,880
playing in their local theater that

318
00:13:51,140 --> 00:13:49,980
maybe you want to see hey there are

319
00:13:53,270 --> 00:13:51,150
people in the chat room that are

320
00:13:56,660 --> 00:13:53,280
discussing now about you know the the

321
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,670
previous name 7:01 can you can you tell

322
00:14:01,100 --> 00:13:58,800
them why that name was changed on this

323
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:01,110
film well the the original title for the

324
00:14:06,140 --> 00:14:03,510
movie it's goes back five or six years

325
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:06,150
ago when James started working on this

326
00:14:12,380 --> 00:14:08,570
documentary it was originally called the

327
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:12,390
701 and that number came from of the I

328
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:15,450
believe of the nearly 13,000 UFO cases

329
00:14:20,270 --> 00:14:17,850
that the the military the United States

330
00:14:22,460 --> 00:14:20,280
Air Force investigated in their Project

331
00:14:27,860 --> 00:14:22,470
Blue Book days back in the 60s the 50s

332
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:27,870
and the 60s of the 13,000 701 remained

333
00:14:33,770 --> 00:14:31,170
unidentified or unexplained so that was

334
00:14:36,170 --> 00:14:33,780
a number that has always stayed that way

335
00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:36,180
it hasn't changed at all it's always

336
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:38,460
been seven and one so when this film

337
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:41,810
started going through a variety of hands

338
00:14:46,850 --> 00:14:44,130
James was always with us from the very

339
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:46,860
beginning when it finally got to his

340
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:50,250
very capable creative hands he didn't

341
00:14:58,190 --> 00:14:53,970
want it to be just recognized as the 701

342
00:15:01,250 --> 00:14:58,200
and we we came up with he came up with

343
00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:01,260
the idea for the title we had all kind

344
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:02,640
of contributed what we thought could be

345
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:05,970
good titles and the phenomenon basically

346
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:08,970
came from one of the early documents in

347
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:12,810
UFO history that I'm always calling the

348
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:15,450
general Nathan twining document from

349
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:19,050
1947 in which he was with the the air

350
00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:21,090
material command and he he wrote a very

351
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:23,220
famous memo that was classified at the

352
00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:26,160
time and within the memo he wrote things

353
00:15:31,950 --> 00:15:29,070
like the phenomenon reported is

354
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:31,960
something very real not fictitious and

355
00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:34,570
extraordinary the phenomenon and we saw

356
00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:37,150
it well yeah let's use that phrase

357
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:38,980
because in the beginning of our film

358
00:15:44,190 --> 00:15:42,010
we're gonna be leading up to where the

359
00:15:47,460 --> 00:15:44,200
title comes in and we're leading into it

360
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:47,470
in a very dramatic way that I won't give

361
00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:48,010
it away now

362
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:50,230
but when when the title finally appears

363
00:15:56,780 --> 00:15:52,330
on the screen the phenomenon the

364
00:16:01,170 --> 00:15:58,440
well Lee

365
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:01,180
thanks so much and just once Oh someone

366
00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:03,130
was asking our number people were asking

367
00:16:07,620 --> 00:16:06,190
you have an idea approximately when that

368
00:16:09,150 --> 00:16:07,630
you're just saying by the end of the

369
00:16:11,580 --> 00:16:09,160
year is that all you know right now yeah

370
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:11,590
all that we note as a timeline we

371
00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:13,600
believe we want this to be distributed

372
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:16,270
ready for release to the public and

373
00:16:20,610 --> 00:16:18,610
around the holiday time which means that

374
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:20,620
a company is the company is going to do

375
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:22,720
the distribution and they need to have

376
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:25,510
the final product of it from us in their

377
00:16:30,090 --> 00:16:27,610
hands about three months ahead of time

378
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:30,100
so they can do everything they need to

379
00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:33,370
begin to do the promo work for it so if

380
00:16:37,650 --> 00:16:35,620
we're going to be in theaters in

381
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:37,660
December they've got to have the film by

382
00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:39,970
September and that's around the corner I

383
00:16:44,610 --> 00:16:43,390
got it all right hey thanks so much I

384
00:16:45,930 --> 00:16:44,620
really appreciate you filling it it's

385
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:45,940
always great talking to you whether oh

386
00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:49,210
is lower on the phone it's always fun

387
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:50,950
Thank You Martin and have a great

388
00:16:55,380 --> 00:16:52,930
conversation with Bruce Maccabee he's

389
00:17:00,120 --> 00:16:55,390
one of my favorite people on the planet

390
00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:00,130
excellent all right you take care okay

391
00:17:05,430 --> 00:17:01,840
good night guys all right good night

392
00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:05,440
all right bye-bye all right so my guest

393
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:09,310
tonight Bruce Maccabee he hasn't been on

394
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:12,850
for I think six years or so a long time

395
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:15,510
so it's really good to welcome him back

396
00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:18,010
he has quite a background we're gonna be

397
00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:20,200
talking about that he was involved all

398
00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:22,000
the way back and the Navy when he was in

399
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:25,150
the Navy he was researching UFOs

400
00:17:28,430 --> 00:17:27,100
you know privately so we're gonna be

401
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:28,440
talking about that and a whole lot more

402
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:34,720
Bruce welcome to the show oh yeah I know

403
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:37,840
he's always always a lot of fun so I'm

404
00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:39,910
gonna try to boost your audio just a

405
00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:44,500
little bit so Bruce you know since you

406
00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:45,790
have been on

407
00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:49,720
you know a lot has happened in UFOs in

408
00:17:56,130 --> 00:17:52,270
general and I know that you have done a

409
00:18:00,210 --> 00:17:56,140
ton of work on whether it's video or you

410
00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:00,220
know photograph you know analysis your

411
00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:02,590
background has a lot to do with that can

412
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:07,030
you since you've been on I have a lot of

413
00:18:11,570 --> 00:18:08,980
new listeners can you give in a nutshell

414
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:11,580
your background and we'll get right into

415
00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:14,080
your thoughts and what's going on today

416
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:15,940
and what some of the work you did in the

417
00:18:26,610 --> 00:18:22,330
past interested in investigating the

418
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:26,620
subject in the late 1960s at the time

419
00:18:32,190 --> 00:18:29,290
when the cotton report was going on

420
00:18:35,220 --> 00:18:32,200
funded by the Project Blue Book and the

421
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:35,230
Air Force and there was a period of time

422
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:36,730
there where you could talk about UFOs

423
00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:40,320
having a bag over your head but that

424
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:43,830
ended in 1969 one in the Air Force

425
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:47,410
closed Project Blue Book and everybody

426
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:49,210
including mainly including the press

427
00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:52,690
sort of assumed that UFOs had been

428
00:18:59,310 --> 00:18:54,700
explained and there was nothing to it it

429
00:19:03,090 --> 00:18:59,320
was all going away and then in 1973 it

430
00:19:06,170 --> 00:19:03,100
was we're back and the summer late

431
00:19:08,340 --> 00:19:06,180
summer a flapper sighting started in the

432
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:08,350
southeastern United States and sort of

433
00:19:13,860 --> 00:19:11,440
the flap sort of moved around towards

434
00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:13,870
the Northeast somewhat and there were a

435
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:15,700
couple of settings that made national

436
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:20,080
news the Nixon Parker abduction it has

437
00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:23,470
the Pascagoula Mississippi oh yeah Larry

438
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:28,660
coin helicopter case north of Columbus

439
00:19:36,540 --> 00:19:35,050
Ohio also made national news your phone

440
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:36,550
settings to make it into the national

441
00:19:42,780 --> 00:19:39,520
news and that was - it did anyway at

442
00:19:44,820 --> 00:19:42,790
that point I was clear to me that your

443
00:19:47,190 --> 00:19:44,830
hosts weren't going away I had joined

444
00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:47,200
Nye Catholic you know the late sixties

445
00:19:52,260 --> 00:19:49,390
and so I was a little familiar some

446
00:19:55,410 --> 00:19:52,270
extent with what I cap did that got me

447
00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:55,420
on some UFO investigations I went out

448
00:20:03,380 --> 00:20:01,700
investigated a few cases and there's a

449
00:20:07,010 --> 00:20:03,390
parent that I was wasn't running up

450
00:20:10,159 --> 00:20:07,020
against cases being people being nuts or

451
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:10,169
kind of hoax things and so on

452
00:20:19,130 --> 00:20:17,250
so and after 1973 I began doing my own

453
00:20:21,490 --> 00:20:19,140
my own research work I guess you could

454
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:21,500
say starting off statistically

455
00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:24,960
reanalyzing the special report 14 a

456
00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:27,480
project Bluebook that had been published

457
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:31,020
about 20 years earlier i spent time on

458
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:35,730
that i tackled a photo case known as the

459
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:38,250
Myrmidon little photo case the oregon

460
00:20:43,159 --> 00:20:41,490
1950 portrait and his wife got two

461
00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:43,169
pictures of an object flying by their

462
00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:45,900
farm the image of the object is large

463
00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:47,190
enough and clear enough so it's either

464
00:20:55,070 --> 00:20:49,740
the real thing or hoax there's no

465
00:20:57,649 --> 00:20:55,080
halfway point and that that was analyzed

466
00:21:01,220 --> 00:20:57,659
by William Hartmann during the time of

467
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:01,230
the Condon study in 68 69 and they he

468
00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:05,010
concluded that he couldn't prove there

469
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:07,500
wasn't a fake but it seemed to him as it

470
00:21:10,940 --> 00:21:08,850
was real and he said all things

471
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:10,950
investigated seem to be consistent with

472
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:13,679
the idea that just extraordinary flying

473
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:16,320
object of God within this past them the

474
00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:19,890
site of the the to trench and here it

475
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:24,600
was in a multi-page hundreds of pages

476
00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:28,500
document devoted to all sorts of studies

477
00:21:38,020 --> 00:21:35,070
of ufology from history the history of

478
00:21:40,399 --> 00:21:38,030
the subject along with the histories of

479
00:21:41,149 --> 00:21:40,409
numerous settings that they investigated

480
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:41,159
and so on

481
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:43,970
and this is the one sighting that

482
00:21:49,130 --> 00:21:47,039
William Hartmann suggested might be real

483
00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:49,140
essentially and you would think that

484
00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:51,059
where the funded organization like

485
00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:53,190
fathers study like this funded by the

486
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:55,020
government and carry out of the

487
00:21:59,419 --> 00:21:57,090
university that if they came up with

488
00:22:01,360 --> 00:21:59,429
something positive everybody else would

489
00:22:04,399 --> 00:22:01,370
jump on it and see if they were right

490
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:04,409
but to my greatest surprise nobody

491
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:08,850
jumped on it and so I jumped on it and

492
00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:11,230
to see if if I could

493
00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:14,260
reproduce what Hartman claimed and also

494
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:20,220
go beyond what he said so over the next

495
00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:27,910
well from 1974 on about 70 77 78 I did

496
00:22:33,030 --> 00:22:31,540
studies of the tread photos and all the

497
00:22:34,169 --> 00:22:33,040
things that go along with the rest and

498
00:22:36,299 --> 00:22:34,179
they're becoming they have and

499
00:22:40,289 --> 00:22:36,309
interviewing people who knew them and

500
00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:40,299
doing all the analysis of a theory this

501
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:47,620
is all a website boom AK mysite.com that

502
00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:55,990
is BR UMUC dot my SI te dot comm room at

503
00:23:01,640 --> 00:22:57,720
mysite.com

504
00:23:05,210 --> 00:23:01,650
and you can search the site for various

505
00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:05,220
this hundred megabytes I guess of

506
00:23:11,549 --> 00:23:07,660
analysis of zillions of sightings

507
00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:11,559
ranging from the Trent case Skylab three

508
00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:19,740
say you know UFOs my astronauts and the

509
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:25,390
1986 1986 Japan Airlines case flight

510
00:23:37,919 --> 00:23:34,240
1628 over Laska the 2004 Mexican Air

511
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:37,929
Force sighting over the peninsula lots

512
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:40,240
of lots of stuff Gulf Breeze fits in

513
00:23:46,860 --> 00:23:43,690
there things that maybe maybe people

514
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:46,870
never heard of but anyway I started

515
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:49,570
doing investigations of various thing

516
00:23:54,930 --> 00:23:52,000
that one of the most important ones that

517
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:54,940
I did I lucked out you might say to be

518
00:23:58,919 --> 00:23:56,890
the person investigating a famous New

519
00:24:03,960 --> 00:23:58,929
Zealand sightings when they occurred in

520
00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:03,970
December 1978 involving people on board

521
00:24:12,270 --> 00:24:18,770
anyway I have a big report on that and

522
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:24,510
that sort of led me which is another

523
00:24:29,550 --> 00:24:27,460
serious interesting story I might

524
00:24:33,150 --> 00:24:29,560
mention this since I was are with you I

525
00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:33,160
guess five or six years ago I published

526
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:37,480
four books on a subject flagship bookish

527
00:24:46,020 --> 00:24:41,710
the flagship book is called yeah FBI CIA

528
00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:46,030
UFO connection FBI CIA UFO connection

529
00:24:53,550 --> 00:24:49,720
and that's available at Amazon as are

530
00:24:58,260 --> 00:24:53,560
the other ones the abduction in my

531
00:25:02,930 --> 00:24:58,270
family is another second book and three

532
00:25:05,370 --> 00:25:02,940
minutes in June which is the most

533
00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:05,380
complete study of the Kenneth Arnold

534
00:25:11,390 --> 00:25:09,040
case analysis of his descriptions of

535
00:25:14,550 --> 00:25:11,400
that happen

536
00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:14,560
Johnson was they who saw these objects

537
00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:17,230
flying overhead just after they went

538
00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:20,470
outside okay

539
00:25:29,330 --> 00:25:25,750
they're the most reasonable called 1952

540
00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:29,340
of the legacy of 1952 the year the UFO

541
00:25:39,050 --> 00:25:33,430
worse I've been so reliving on Facebook

542
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:39,060
stuff on year 1952 and most recently

543
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:41,710
seventeen years exactly for the day

544
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:45,520
before the moon landing that we were

545
00:25:53,490 --> 00:25:50,320
celebrated last weekend yeah flying

546
00:25:59,090 --> 00:25:53,500
saucers appeared over Washington DC on

547
00:26:01,890 --> 00:25:59,100
the 19th and 20th of June oh joy 1952

548
00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:01,900
there'd been a big buildup of sightings

549
00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:03,280
throughout the whole United States

550
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:07,900
starting in April of 1952 and by July of

551
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:10,900
1950 two Blue Book was getting ten or

552
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:14,770
twenty or thirty sightings a day far

553
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:21,810
each Saturday the 19th of June of July I

554
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:28,090
radar unknown unknown radar targets

555
00:26:32,770 --> 00:26:30,730
appeared over the Washington DC area and

556
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:32,780
there were sightings of the radar

557
00:26:40,510 --> 00:26:34,970
targets and lights during the early

558
00:26:42,460 --> 00:26:40,520
morning hours of July 20th and so things

559
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:42,470
are happening to the 17 years ago from

560
00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:49,760
today yeah around the 26th the next

561
00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:52,040
which would be 17 years ago next

562
00:26:56,170 --> 00:26:53,350
Saturday

563
00:26:57,310 --> 00:26:56,180
well these object came back again stayed

564
00:27:01,290 --> 00:26:57,320
around for a few hours

565
00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:01,300
they had chanted Jets chasing them and

566
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:05,150
it made a big flap in the press the most

567
00:27:10,750 --> 00:27:09,050
important outcome of that humor

568
00:27:14,290 --> 00:27:10,760
tremendous concentration of sightings in

569
00:27:17,740 --> 00:27:14,300
1952 was a press conference held by

570
00:27:21,730 --> 00:27:17,750
General John Samford the director of air

571
00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:21,740
force intelligence on Tuesday the 29th I

572
00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:28,460
think it is of July 1952 anyway his

573
00:27:33,460 --> 00:27:30,430
press conference lasted for over an hour

574
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:33,470
during which time he said probably the

575
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:35,330
most provocative thing he said was there

576
00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:38,530
were incredible people making incredible

577
00:27:43,780 --> 00:27:41,870
reports or it's that effect yeah giving

578
00:27:48,370 --> 00:27:43,790
some some level of credibility to what

579
00:27:52,450 --> 00:27:48,380
was going on nevertheless he tried to

580
00:27:56,170 --> 00:27:52,460
pawn off the radar detection as a

581
00:27:58,990 --> 00:27:56,180
results of its propagation due to

582
00:28:01,450 --> 00:27:59,000
temperature inversion that's right yeah

583
00:28:03,610 --> 00:28:01,460
and the temperature inversion effect has

584
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:03,620
an effect on radar beam going on radar

585
00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:05,360
being supposed to stay up in the sky but

586
00:28:10,030 --> 00:28:08,030
there's too much of a radar too much of

587
00:28:11,710 --> 00:28:10,040
a temperature inversion the radar beam

588
00:28:14,970 --> 00:28:11,720
will actually be bent downwards and hits

589
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:14,980
things on the ground and the only

590
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:17,810
experienced radar controller will be

591
00:28:23,140 --> 00:28:21,290
able to distinguish between what appear

592
00:28:25,740 --> 00:28:23,150
to be targets in the air but are

593
00:28:29,140 --> 00:28:25,750
actually reflections from ground objects

594
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:29,150
and then you st. distinguish between

595
00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:32,480
those radar targets that are not real

596
00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:35,020
compared to the ones that are and the

597
00:28:43,239 --> 00:28:38,480
experience radar controllers

598
00:28:46,090 --> 00:28:43,249
years a week weeks in years after these

599
00:28:50,259 --> 00:28:46,100
events and general Sanford's press

600
00:28:52,239 --> 00:28:50,269
conference they were absolutely

601
00:29:01,499 --> 00:28:52,249
confident that what they saw were real

602
00:29:05,769 --> 00:29:01,509
hard targets of not radar radar effect

603
00:29:07,239 --> 00:29:05,779
yeah Bruce I would that's some flavor a

604
00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:07,249
little bit late for our break we're

605
00:29:12,129 --> 00:29:09,320
gonna have to go into that so hang in

606
00:29:14,729 --> 00:29:12,139
everyone we'll be right back right after

607
00:29:17,379 --> 00:29:14,739
these messages

608
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:17,389
all right everyone welcome back we're

609
00:29:20,830 --> 00:29:19,039
trying to work on the audio here on

610
00:29:23,409 --> 00:29:20,840
Bruce's side hopefully it's a little bit

611
00:29:24,970 --> 00:29:23,419
better Bruce right before we went to

612
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:24,980
break you were talking about

613
00:29:32,830 --> 00:29:28,970
Sanford back in July of 1952 talking

614
00:29:34,629 --> 00:29:32,840
about the radar inversions and you said

615
00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:34,639
that people were actually saying there

616
00:29:41,999 --> 00:29:37,369
were hard target hard targets you want

617
00:29:46,889 --> 00:29:45,519
testified many times over the years hard

618
00:29:50,499 --> 00:29:46,899
targets as far as they were concerned

619
00:29:55,090 --> 00:29:50,509
and I probably the main importance of

620
00:29:58,570 --> 00:29:55,100
the event was general Stanford's press

621
00:30:00,460 --> 00:29:58,580
conference where he tried to explain

622
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:00,470
knowing everything is national phenomena

623
00:30:04,930 --> 00:30:02,690
and as far as the radar targets are

624
00:30:06,249 --> 00:30:04,940
concerned he was saying it was all sort

625
00:30:08,049 --> 00:30:06,259
of like hot air he's asked the

626
00:30:11,499 --> 00:30:08,059
terminology picked up by the by the

627
00:30:14,049 --> 00:30:11,509
press it was all hot air and it's

628
00:30:15,639 --> 00:30:14,059
becoming became important for the sort

629
00:30:19,330 --> 00:30:15,649
of the policy of the Air Force took

630
00:30:21,099 --> 00:30:19,340
towards UFOs to bet on namely that there

631
00:30:23,409 --> 00:30:21,109
was nothing to it there was no

632
00:30:25,330 --> 00:30:23,419
throughout the United States forget it

633
00:30:28,330 --> 00:30:25,340
don't toss anything we don't want to

634
00:30:29,919 --> 00:30:28,340
know well UFOs and the the Air Force

635
00:30:32,379 --> 00:30:29,929
never was to continue to investigate

636
00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:32,389
because they had so had this fulfill his

637
00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:33,830
duty to prove that there was nothing in

638
00:30:41,019 --> 00:30:37,369
the sky could hurt the United States but

639
00:30:47,099 --> 00:30:41,029
anyway that was a 1962 17 years ago and

640
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:47,109
we're still struggling under the hot air

641
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:52,370
syndrome we might say yeah

642
00:30:58,510 --> 00:30:54,890
right now and back a lot of people will

643
00:31:00,760 --> 00:30:58,520
look at the images of the Capitol

644
00:31:03,250 --> 00:31:00,770
building with the lights over it and

645
00:31:05,950 --> 00:31:03,260
that actually is that's actually an

646
00:31:07,630 --> 00:31:05,960
inversion of lights isn't it up in the

647
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:07,640
sky that that picture that you also

648
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:10,159
often see it has nothing to do with UFOs

649
00:31:13,769 --> 00:31:11,570
even though it was happening at that

650
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:13,779
time am I right about that

651
00:31:19,570 --> 00:31:17,330
well I can't imagine an inversion of

652
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:19,580
lights that is lights on the ground the

653
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:23,809
scene somehow by the closest you can get

654
00:31:29,710 --> 00:31:25,850
would be a mirage and the angular

655
00:31:32,529 --> 00:31:29,720
separation between the object of the

656
00:32:02,320 --> 00:31:32,539
Mirage and the Mirage image itself has

657
00:32:04,510 --> 00:32:02,330
to be less than a degree yeah yeah I was

658
00:32:06,130 --> 00:32:04,520
loosely calling it an inversion just

659
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:06,140
because I didn't know what what to call

660
00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:10,010
it you know it's not you know it's not

661
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:11,870
like a lens flare or anything like that

662
00:32:18,210 --> 00:32:14,809
but it was you know those pictures of

663
00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:18,220
that people see online if you search for

664
00:32:21,820 --> 00:32:19,460
1952

665
00:32:23,590 --> 00:32:21,830
you know UFOs over Washington that's

666
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:23,600
what you'll come up with in it basically

667
00:32:28,450 --> 00:32:26,210
lines up with the streetlights perfectly

668
00:32:32,620 --> 00:32:28,460
up in the sky however that was done I

669
00:32:34,419 --> 00:32:32,630
have no idea but those aren't that's a

670
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:34,429
single picture you're talking about yes

671
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:38,110
yeah yeah I'm talking about a movie a

672
00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:41,600
movie of lights moving past across the

673
00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:45,350
right moving past the Capitol oh okay I

674
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:47,870
think I've seen that as well Wow Wow

675
00:32:57,340 --> 00:32:53,840
yeah but that was really the picture

676
00:32:59,889 --> 00:32:57,350
you're talking about taken from the rear

677
00:33:02,560 --> 00:32:59,899
of the Capitol building looking towards

678
00:33:04,899 --> 00:33:02,570
example seeing rights up in the

679
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:04,909
up in the sky and very bright light

680
00:33:11,289 --> 00:33:07,210
greatly overexposed at ground level

681
00:33:12,820 --> 00:33:11,299
those are known as they as players lens

682
00:33:15,549 --> 00:33:12,830
flares whether you get a reflection in

683
00:33:18,909 --> 00:33:15,559
the optics of the camera a reflection

684
00:33:20,850 --> 00:33:18,919
that takes some light from an actual

685
00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:20,860
light source extremely bright and

686
00:33:27,070 --> 00:33:23,870
reflects it over to some angle away from

687
00:33:30,129 --> 00:33:27,080
the center of the photo making a dimmer

688
00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:30,139
image which is usually not seen but can

689
00:33:35,230 --> 00:33:32,620
be seen if there's a dark background

690
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:35,240
then the flare can be seen on

691
00:33:39,759 --> 00:33:37,970
superimpose on the background but anyway

692
00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:39,769
the picture you're talking about I'm

693
00:33:45,249 --> 00:33:42,529
familiar with and they said that's a

694
00:33:47,470 --> 00:33:45,259
result of lens flares causing reflection

695
00:33:51,129 --> 00:33:47,480
images that appear in the sky but are

696
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:51,139
not actually in the sky right right so

697
00:33:55,210 --> 00:33:53,090
actually I had it when I said it wasn't

698
00:33:57,999 --> 00:33:55,220
lens flares I was wrong it actually is

699
00:33:59,379 --> 00:33:58,009
lens flares but yeah but we're both

700
00:34:02,950 --> 00:33:59,389
talking about the same picture which is

701
00:34:06,610 --> 00:34:02,960
which is interesting but 52 was really

702
00:34:09,220 --> 00:34:06,620
you know a year where there was a crazy

703
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:09,230
amount of sightings you know to the

704
00:34:15,700 --> 00:34:13,119
point where you know it did bring that

705
00:34:18,730 --> 00:34:15,710
you know did did change a lot of things

706
00:34:32,710 --> 00:34:18,740
as far as people taking a hard look at

707
00:34:36,339 --> 00:34:32,720
it and summarize the SDI file has some

708
00:34:38,829 --> 00:34:36,349
documents in the fall of nineteen well

709
00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:38,839
one document on the same day as Senator

710
00:34:47,230 --> 00:34:44,060
Sanford's press conference an FBI agent

711
00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:47,240
went to the office of Air Force

712
00:34:53,889 --> 00:34:52,609
intelligence and interview find out what

713
00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:53,899
was going on with all these sightings

714
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:56,720
and the Asian was told a couple of

715
00:35:00,190 --> 00:34:58,160
percent four or five percent of the

716
00:35:02,620 --> 00:35:00,200
sightings could not be explained and

717
00:35:04,109 --> 00:35:02,630
that some top-level Air Force people

718
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:04,119
were seriously considering

719
00:35:09,339 --> 00:35:06,410
interplanetary ships to use a

720
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:09,349
phraseology that's in the document so

721
00:35:14,740 --> 00:35:12,800
that was very interesting and also in

722
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:14,750
1952 there were so many sightings the

723
00:35:20,110 --> 00:35:15,290
CIA

724
00:35:25,870 --> 00:35:20,120
involved and that was summarized also in

725
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:25,880
my book now all those were a lot of

726
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:27,710
citing the things that happened in the

727
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:31,090
fifties the last part of the book

728
00:35:38,980 --> 00:35:34,490
discusses in my direct interactions with

729
00:35:42,850 --> 00:35:38,990
the CIA which began in 1979 when I was

730
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:42,860
looking for some help in analyzing the

731
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:44,810
radar detectors in the New Zealand

732
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:49,040
sightings of December 78 and I went I

733
00:35:54,430 --> 00:35:51,650
was it was suggested by a person that

734
00:35:58,210 --> 00:35:54,440
knew that I could go to CIA meeting get

735
00:36:02,590 --> 00:35:58,220
some help on radar and so I went there

736
00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:02,600
and explained to about a half a dozen

737
00:36:06,490 --> 00:36:04,220
gentleman who was not there listening

738
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:06,500
well I knew about the New Zealand

739
00:36:15,130 --> 00:36:12,530
sightings and later on I or I guess I

740
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:15,140
visited the CIA two or three times in

741
00:36:21,070 --> 00:36:19,040
1979 got some information but it really

742
00:36:22,690 --> 00:36:21,080
doesn't make much make much of an

743
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:22,700
impression on me

744
00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:25,850
and I never expected to go back there

745
00:36:31,540 --> 00:36:28,190
again but just so half of the five years

746
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:31,550
later Yahoo phone call from a CIA guy

747
00:36:36,250 --> 00:36:34,010
who was interested in the Navy work I

748
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:36,260
was doing all his UFO stuff was

749
00:36:41,230 --> 00:36:38,720
independent of the Navy of course the

750
00:36:43,150 --> 00:36:41,240
Navy work I was doing at that time was

751
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:43,160
generating underwater sound using

752
00:36:49,050 --> 00:36:45,770
high-power lasers high-power laser beams

753
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:49,060
zapping the water to create sound and

754
00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:53,170
the CIA agent had been studying

755
00:36:59,380 --> 00:36:56,000
comparable paper figures out of the

756
00:37:01,410 --> 00:36:59,390
Soviet Union he want to know whether we

757
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:01,420
were keeping up with the Russians or not

758
00:37:10,090 --> 00:37:07,010
so he contacted me and I went there well

759
00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:10,100
on the the first phone call you asked me

760
00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:12,200
if I could do it I said you are be happy

761
00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:14,150
to give a description of what we're

762
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:17,630
doing and two hours later he called me

763
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:19,850
up with details on when I should be

764
00:37:28,060 --> 00:37:26,690
there and he then after talking to

765
00:37:29,110 --> 00:37:28,070
business he then says I understand

766
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:29,120
you've been here before

767
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:31,730
my job nearly hit the floor because I

768
00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:32,930
had not intended to say anything about

769
00:37:43,420 --> 00:37:39,350
being a CIA to discuss UFOs so I covered

770
00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:43,430
have been blowing you might say the next

771
00:37:51,250 --> 00:37:45,710
10 years or so I had a considerable

772
00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:51,260
interaction with this guy on the UFO

773
00:37:57,390 --> 00:37:52,670
subject at the same time we were talking

774
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:01,410
did was there up there was someone that

775
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:04,910
contacted me one time that thought that

776
00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:08,890
you may have actually worked for the CIA

777
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:13,460
involving UFOs and some like private

778
00:38:19,410 --> 00:38:17,210
capacity was that just is that just a

779
00:38:27,220 --> 00:38:25,320
well I didn't work for the CIA the

780
00:38:31,830 --> 00:38:27,230
implication of getting paid or something

781
00:38:35,380 --> 00:38:31,840
like that I shared with them some

782
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:35,390
information that I got this guy who was

783
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:37,010
apparently interested in the subject of

784
00:38:40,690 --> 00:38:37,730
selling huh

785
00:38:42,850 --> 00:38:40,700
virtually every defense situation or

786
00:38:45,310 --> 00:38:42,860
whatever I went to over the years that I

787
00:38:48,220 --> 00:38:45,320
was with the Navy there were people who

788
00:38:51,370 --> 00:38:48,230
are interested in a subject and they

789
00:38:56,380 --> 00:38:51,380
would talk to talk about it in

790
00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:56,390
whispering tones yeah nobody nobody was

791
00:39:00,700 --> 00:38:58,640
over the interest in it you might say

792
00:39:02,110 --> 00:39:00,710
but he was find out there would be a

793
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:02,120
little group of people who would get

794
00:39:06,070 --> 00:39:04,610
together away and that happened just

795
00:39:08,710 --> 00:39:06,080
about every defensive situation and I

796
00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:08,720
was that Bruce someone wanted to know

797
00:39:16,780 --> 00:39:14,270
what the laser sound was actually for we

798
00:39:18,970 --> 00:39:16,790
were investigating this for a number of

799
00:39:22,810 --> 00:39:18,980
things but one of the biggies was Andy's

800
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:22,820
anti-submarine warfare ASW where you

801
00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:25,250
could use the laser beam from an

802
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:27,590
airplane beam it down onto the surface

803
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:29,960
of the water generate sound of the

804
00:39:33,940 --> 00:39:31,520
surface of the water that goes down into

805
00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:33,950
the water and those doesn't wear some

806
00:39:38,770 --> 00:39:36,260
submarine with a sense of hydrophone can

807
00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:38,780
be listening and you could send a signal

808
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:41,350
from the airplane directly to the

809
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:43,370
submarine

810
00:39:49,210 --> 00:39:46,370
by using this interface method of

811
00:39:51,250 --> 00:39:49,220
creating generating a series of pulses

812
00:39:54,130 --> 00:39:51,260
of laser pulses on the surface that

813
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:54,140
generated a series of acoustic pulses in

814
00:39:59,700 --> 00:39:56,650
the body of water underneath the surface

815
00:40:02,710 --> 00:39:59,710
and there are also potential

816
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:02,720
potentiality for using for searching out

817
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:06,650
for mines and other things like that but

818
00:40:12,670 --> 00:40:09,290
that was the that was a main driver was

819
00:40:15,370 --> 00:40:12,680
the ASW situation and that was the

820
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:15,380
interest also the the CIA because they

821
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:18,050
could see the Soviets doing the same

822
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:19,730
sort of work we were doing measuring how

823
00:40:25,230 --> 00:40:21,920
far you could transmit a pulse in the

824
00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:25,240
water if you create it with a laser beam

825
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:28,190
interesting Wow and is this something

826
00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:31,490
that actually was used or is used in any

827
00:40:55,570 --> 00:40:32,270
type of way

828
00:40:58,300 --> 00:40:55,580
currently sang when sending

829
00:41:08,110 --> 00:40:58,310
low-frequency electromagnetic signals

830
00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:08,120
out - eh between what we were doing and

831
00:41:11,620 --> 00:41:09,260
what they were doing with the

832
00:41:14,050 --> 00:41:11,630
electromagnetic ax the project saying

833
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:14,060
when message finally ended up working

834
00:41:21,220 --> 00:41:16,720
and so they didn't need to worry about

835
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:21,230
generating sound where they some evolved

836
00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:25,370
with an airplane so it never got used

837
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:28,310
you might say Wow well that's that's

838
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:33,200
really interesting so you know since the

839
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:35,510
last time we've talked actually there's

840
00:41:42,850 --> 00:41:39,850
so much more technology out there today

841
00:41:44,860 --> 00:41:42,860
not really I'm not really talking about

842
00:41:49,810 --> 00:41:44,870
anything to do with photo or or video

843
00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:49,820
but alt but in detection as you may I'm

844
00:41:53,710 --> 00:41:51,590
sure you keep up on that stuff for

845
00:41:55,780 --> 00:41:53,720
instance the Navy what the Navy has and

846
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:55,790
why the Navy is actually seeing a lot

847
00:41:58,900 --> 00:41:57,170
more

848
00:42:02,320 --> 00:41:58,910
then they have ever seen before in the

849
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:02,330
skies because of the different you know

850
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:03,770
the different equipment that they have

851
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:06,260
that and who knows what the future is

852
00:42:12,099 --> 00:42:08,450
going to bring as far as technology goes

853
00:42:15,310 --> 00:42:12,109
have you been keeping up on that one of

854
00:42:19,930 --> 00:42:15,320
the key things in this recent revelation

855
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:19,940
about the nimitz events of 2004 November

856
00:42:29,710 --> 00:42:25,720
Kevin Dave the guy who's a radar

857
00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:29,720
operator was telling me about tracking

858
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:36,230
these objects and they had the the spy

859
00:42:40,690 --> 00:42:39,530
radar which is a multi beam radar in

860
00:42:45,010 --> 00:42:40,700
fact several different things at the

861
00:42:46,330 --> 00:42:45,020
same time at high speed if you want what

862
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:46,340
he told me could not have been

863
00:42:53,050 --> 00:42:49,520
determined say 10 or 20 years earlier

864
00:42:55,450 --> 00:42:53,060
before spying I was available hmm I

865
00:43:01,540 --> 00:42:55,460
forget what the first the first ship was

866
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:01,550
a spy radar the Princeton I believe some

867
00:43:10,930 --> 00:43:06,890
time and late 90s I guess it was oh oh I

868
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:10,940
see to see mm-hmm when I first had the

869
00:43:16,570 --> 00:43:14,450
first the first ship was take her on the

870
00:43:20,410 --> 00:43:16,580
road Ticonderoga sticks in my mind but

871
00:43:22,510 --> 00:43:20,420
that might not be it at any rate it was

872
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:22,520
well proven by the time it was being

873
00:43:30,940 --> 00:43:26,210
used by Kevin day on the UH on the

874
00:43:33,250 --> 00:43:30,950
Princeton using the the spy radar he was

875
00:43:36,670 --> 00:43:33,260
able to measure these obviously were

876
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:36,680
traveling at 28,000 feet altitude going

877
00:43:45,940 --> 00:43:40,880
100 knots which is they crash velocity

878
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:45,950
oh yeah air is so thin up there that you

879
00:43:55,810 --> 00:43:51,770
gotta go at high speed yeah shoving air

880
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:55,820
down high-speed holes the plane up

881
00:43:59,620 --> 00:43:57,650
you're not going fast enough you're not

882
00:44:02,650 --> 00:43:59,630
shoving enough air down the hole to play

883
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:02,660
out but these things are going on calmly

884
00:44:11,950 --> 00:44:09,770
and learn some f-18 Jets approached

885
00:44:13,090 --> 00:44:11,960
they started dropping downwards and he

886
00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:13,100
said they were dropped down to the

887
00:44:19,780 --> 00:44:14,630
surface of the earth of the ocean about

888
00:44:23,050 --> 00:44:19,790
50 feet and he estimated 0.78 seconds

889
00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:23,060
about eight tenths of a second they

890
00:44:28,330 --> 00:44:26,300
would drop from 28,000 feet to fifty

891
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:28,340
feet that's a considerable distance to

892
00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:32,270
travel in less than a second now let's

893
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:37,630
think for a second I calculated this for

894
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:39,920
Newtonian mechanics we were talking

895
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:42,530
about it and some object was pushing me

896
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:46,570
pushing one of these things downwards to

897
00:44:54,130 --> 00:44:52,370
go half way accelerating half way to get

898
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:54,140
as far as quickly as you can to the

899
00:45:00,250 --> 00:44:56,870
halfway point and then decelerating from

900
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:00,260
the halfway point to the end point and

901
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:02,810
if you calculate like this you come up

902
00:45:10,210 --> 00:45:07,610
with some thousand G's or something like

903
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:10,220
that of acceleration necessary to cover

904
00:45:16,060 --> 00:45:13,730
that distance and from 28,000 feet down

905
00:45:18,190 --> 00:45:16,070
to zero if he hovering at fifty feet I

906
00:45:20,740 --> 00:45:18,200
should say Wow

907
00:45:26,410 --> 00:45:20,750
covering that distance in less than a

908
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:26,420
tenth of a second it requires I was in a

909
00:45:30,610 --> 00:45:28,760
couple of thousand G's to get up to the

910
00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:30,620
speed that you're reaching your halfway

911
00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:33,020
point and you slam on the brakes I

912
00:45:38,290 --> 00:45:35,840
really mean slam on the brakes reverse

913
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:38,300
your reverse your thrust or whatever and

914
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:41,570
slow down so that you stop fifty feet

915
00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:45,110
above the water yeah you can think of

916
00:45:48,460 --> 00:45:46,670
other ways of getting from point A to

917
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:48,470
point B a lot of different ways of

918
00:45:53,310 --> 00:45:51,410
getting from point A to point B but the

919
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:53,320
halfway the halfway mark

920
00:45:58,380 --> 00:45:55,280
accelerate to the halfway point the

921
00:46:01,300 --> 00:45:58,390
decelerate bit to the end point is a

922
00:46:03,690 --> 00:46:01,310
gives you an estimate of what sort of

923
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:03,700
acceleration you have to have it is huge

924
00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:06,290
so yes they were able to do these

925
00:46:09,070 --> 00:46:07,700
objects we were able to do that and then

926
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:09,080
they sort of meandered back up to the

927
00:46:13,870 --> 00:46:11,050
top twenty-eight out of the feet again

928
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:13,880
anyway we're talking about the

929
00:46:18,010 --> 00:46:15,920
capability of the instruments to detect

930
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:18,020
that and he wouldn't have been able to

931
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:20,450
see that with the ordinary radars they

932
00:46:23,310 --> 00:46:21,890
had in the old days where you know

933
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:23,320
single beam is rotate

934
00:46:30,330 --> 00:46:27,970
oh yeah you're seeing blips appear on

935
00:46:35,820 --> 00:46:30,340
the radar screen every time the beam

936
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:35,830
goes around mm-hmm with a spy radar you

937
00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:38,410
can lock a be mom and that's my

938
00:46:44,460 --> 00:46:40,390
understanding you can lock on a beam and

939
00:46:49,260 --> 00:46:44,470
just let attract whatever you're you

940
00:46:51,570 --> 00:46:49,270
lock it on to that's right now another

941
00:46:54,930 --> 00:46:51,580
you know another point in in that in

942
00:46:58,820 --> 00:46:54,940
particular is if you if you had any type

943
00:47:01,850 --> 00:46:58,830
of craft that could travel those speeds

944
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:01,860
you know it would completely fall apart

945
00:47:08,030 --> 00:47:05,200
just with a thousand Jesus just not even

946
00:47:12,180 --> 00:47:08,040
never mind a being being inside of it

947
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:12,190
just the craft itself I would think it

948
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:14,290
would shatter at with that with that

949
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:17,890
force I mean I don't know I don't know

950
00:47:23,900 --> 00:47:18,490
I'm just

951
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:27,680
Arnold when he thought about his saying

952
00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:31,290
back in June 24 1947

953
00:47:37,590 --> 00:47:35,710
he observed these objects and they're

954
00:47:39,930 --> 00:47:37,600
very jerky motions as they traveled

955
00:47:43,530 --> 00:47:39,940
along that he compared with a saucer

956
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:43,540
skipping out in the water and that's

957
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:45,370
where the term flying saucer came from

958
00:47:53,190 --> 00:47:47,970
if you go back you read my book the

959
00:47:56,430 --> 00:47:53,200
three minutes in June and you see you

960
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:56,440
see the complete story of Kenneth Arnold

961
00:48:03,890 --> 00:48:00,160
a deep analysis of his office sighting

962
00:48:07,170 --> 00:48:03,900
but he one of his first thoughts was

963
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:07,180
these things are so jerky that they

964
00:48:12,060 --> 00:48:09,730
would go in such a high speed and

965
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:12,070
changing directions that they would turn

966
00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:14,290
a human being into a mush

967
00:48:25,470 --> 00:48:19,180
very quickly mm-hmm yeah so that's sort

968
00:48:32,130 --> 00:48:25,480
of the thing these new recent admissions

969
00:48:36,750 --> 00:48:32,140
by the the TTS a people lawyer

970
00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:36,760
Alessandro and so on the the

971
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:39,190
these objects have very jerky motion

972
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:42,850
David flavor who is the one of the f-18

973
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:45,130
pilots to see this thing called tic-tac

974
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:48,400
said it was travelling along in a boxing

975
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:51,370
way like ping-pong ball bouncing off the

976
00:48:59,850 --> 00:48:54,850
wall or you have a very sudden change in

977
00:49:01,770 --> 00:48:59,860
direction you go on easy some some

978
00:49:04,290 --> 00:49:01,780
velocity and suddenly a change into this

979
00:49:07,290 --> 00:49:04,300
some other direction and the change in

980
00:49:10,740 --> 00:49:07,300
direction would requires an extreme

981
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:10,750
extreme acceleration to do that that's

982
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:12,610
enough to turn a human being into a

983
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:18,000
jelly that was already way way back and

984
00:49:30,510 --> 00:49:26,970
1947 talked about general Nathan twining

985
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:30,520
let her talk about the phenomenon as

986
00:49:35,940 --> 00:49:32,050
being real and not fictitious or

987
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:35,950
imaginary and already by that time when

988
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:38,250
he wrote that letter in September of

989
00:49:45,450 --> 00:49:43,090
1947 they know these objects had a very

990
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:45,460
strange characteristic such as being

991
00:49:49,980 --> 00:49:47,290
able to suddenly appear as if dropping

992
00:49:51,150 --> 00:49:49,990
down from a high altitude so having be

993
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:51,160
able to disappeared almost like

994
00:49:58,610 --> 00:49:55,050
disintegration as they took off their

995
00:50:02,340 --> 00:49:58,620
capability of high speed and no

996
00:50:03,540 --> 00:50:02,350
recognizable features that indicator was

997
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:03,550
like an airplane at all

998
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:05,770
that's all our stuff that has been

999
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:10,480
emphasized as characteristics and recent

1000
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:16,000
discussions by CTSA people that was all

1001
00:50:22,820 --> 00:50:20,170
known back in 1947 yes I've asked the

1002
00:50:24,930 --> 00:50:22,830
question what are we learned last every

1003
00:50:26,610 --> 00:50:24,940
one of the things we're just about ready

1004
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:26,620
to go into break here in just a minute

1005
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:30,640
but one of the things up I have argued

1006
00:50:35,820 --> 00:50:33,760
more or less when it comes to people

1007
00:50:37,740 --> 00:50:35,830
saying oh this is just you know new

1008
00:50:41,730 --> 00:50:37,750
technology could be China could be

1009
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:41,740
Russia etc etc etc I I will bring up the

1010
00:50:47,490 --> 00:50:44,290
subject well what about people saying

1011
00:50:49,500 --> 00:50:47,500
the exact same things or exact

1012
00:50:50,730 --> 00:50:49,510
capabilities you know fifty years ago

1013
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:50,740
how would you explain

1014
00:50:55,380 --> 00:50:53,050
that because if something was out for 50

1015
00:50:58,560 --> 00:50:55,390
years we certainly would know about it

1016
00:51:01,410 --> 00:50:58,570
by now you would think but I think we're

1017
00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:01,420
just about ready to go into break here

1018
00:51:06,930 --> 00:51:04,500
so we might as well go ahead and do that

1019
00:51:10,290 --> 00:51:06,940
this is Martin Willis my guest tonight

1020
00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:10,300
is dr. Bruce Maccabee and we'll be back

1021
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:13,260
right back right after these messages

1022
00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:16,330
welcome back to the show this is Martin

1023
00:51:21,930 --> 00:51:18,460
Willis your host my guest tonight is dr.

1024
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:21,940
Bruce Maccabee and good to have you on

1025
00:51:29,070 --> 00:51:27,280
Bruce after all these years so we were

1026
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:29,080
talking about the tic-tac and you know

1027
00:51:37,380 --> 00:51:33,520
the amazing capabilities and there are

1028
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:37,390
some cases way back it seems to come to

1029
00:51:43,530 --> 00:51:41,680
mind that somewhere over Nova Scotia or

1030
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:43,540
someplace like that on the East Coast

1031
00:51:51,690 --> 00:51:48,610
there were some radar tracking of UFOs

1032
00:51:53,940 --> 00:51:51,700
many many years ago of the 20,000 mile

1033
00:52:00,000 --> 00:51:53,950
per hour range do you remember any of

1034
00:52:04,910 --> 00:52:00,010
that type of thing in the past by it's

1035
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:07,650
yeah but I mean there are many cases

1036
00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:10,720
where people are talking about the you

1037
00:52:18,060 --> 00:52:15,280
know the aspects of the UFOs movements

1038
00:52:22,140 --> 00:52:18,070
and things like that and high speed high

1039
00:52:23,730 --> 00:52:22,150
speed motion detected by radar was quite

1040
00:52:27,770 --> 00:52:23,740
common actually back in the old days

1041
00:52:29,940 --> 00:52:27,780
right and they would see see things

1042
00:52:32,190 --> 00:52:29,950
radar targets that weren't like an

1043
00:52:35,099 --> 00:52:32,200
ordinary aircraft and ordinary aircraft

1044
00:52:38,340 --> 00:52:35,109
when you've got a radar beam sweeping

1045
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:38,350
around every 12 seconds a regular

1046
00:52:42,810 --> 00:52:40,450
airplane doesn't move that far in 12

1047
00:52:46,830 --> 00:52:42,820
seconds so you would get a series of

1048
00:52:49,830 --> 00:52:46,840
dots returns bright spots on the radar

1049
00:52:52,290 --> 00:52:49,840
screen a series of bright spots each

1050
00:52:53,790 --> 00:52:52,300
race bought these new bright spot would

1051
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:53,800
be bright and then it would say

1052
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:57,250
downwards gradually fade out so after

1053
00:53:03,850 --> 00:52:59,680
several three or four sweeps of the

1054
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:03,860
radar at one acre a radar target

1055
00:53:10,060 --> 00:53:07,520
would have fainted out and only the

1056
00:53:12,610 --> 00:53:10,070
newest ones were the newer ones would be

1057
00:53:15,130 --> 00:53:12,620
visible but were these objects they had

1058
00:53:16,570 --> 00:53:15,140
a strange situation and there would be a

1059
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:16,580
radar target that would be sitting in

1060
00:53:19,540 --> 00:53:18,110
one place and sitting in one place and

1061
00:53:21,250 --> 00:53:19,550
each time the beam comes around sitting

1062
00:53:22,750 --> 00:53:21,260
in one place and then all of a sudden

1063
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:22,760
the beam would come around the next time

1064
00:53:29,110 --> 00:53:26,000
and this thing is gone and with an

1065
00:53:32,020 --> 00:53:29,120
ordinary so it has gone off the screen

1066
00:53:34,330 --> 00:53:32,030
somewhere an ordinary airplane couldn't

1067
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:34,340
go fast enough to be off the screen in

1068
00:53:39,820 --> 00:53:38,570
12 seconds well they knew just by

1069
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:39,830
looking at these targets that they were

1070
00:53:45,970 --> 00:53:42,170
different from ordinary airplane air

1071
00:53:47,950 --> 00:53:45,980
targets Bruce there's a question in the

1072
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:47,960
chat room that I think it's a good

1073
00:53:53,620 --> 00:53:49,610
question because you were involved in

1074
00:53:55,810 --> 00:53:53,630
the Navy before and Kris up in the chat

1075
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:55,820
rooms asking why would the Navy release

1076
00:54:01,120 --> 00:53:57,650
such compelling evidence to the public

1077
00:54:02,530 --> 00:54:01,130
and allow active Navy pilots to comment

1078
00:54:08,350 --> 00:54:02,540
on what they're seeing what's your

1079
00:54:14,020 --> 00:54:08,360
thoughts on that well there must be some

1080
00:54:16,660 --> 00:54:14,030
change in a policy of the people the

1081
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:16,670
higher-ups we always say in the Navy I'm

1082
00:54:21,820 --> 00:54:19,370
not in the Navy I work for the Navy at a

1083
00:54:26,410 --> 00:54:21,830
laboratory but I was never in the Navy

1084
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:26,420
as hell I see so I I know these changes

1085
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:28,970
command exist but I never interacted

1086
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:30,160
with them directly

1087
00:54:37,540 --> 00:54:33,290
right in any case there must be a change

1088
00:54:40,780 --> 00:54:37,550
in policy by the top people because in

1089
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:40,790
the past pirates who saw things are

1090
00:54:44,590 --> 00:54:43,130
basic basically either they were smart

1091
00:54:49,140 --> 00:54:44,600
enough to keep their mouth shut

1092
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:49,150
and guarantee their retirement would pay

1093
00:54:56,860 --> 00:54:54,650
yeah or else they were told to either

1094
00:54:59,440 --> 00:54:56,870
shut up on their own or they were told

1095
00:55:03,370 --> 00:54:59,450
not to say coal things like this never

1096
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:03,380
happened and and stories like that go

1097
00:55:09,070 --> 00:55:06,050
away back to the beginning right yeah

1098
00:55:10,750 --> 00:55:09,080
yeah and not just you know not just the

1099
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:10,760
military we're talking you know

1100
00:55:18,170 --> 00:55:14,690
commercial pilots you know as well you

1101
00:55:24,390 --> 00:55:21,510
after the first two or three to three

1102
00:55:27,150 --> 00:55:24,400
weeks after his sighting reaction had

1103
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:27,160
said nobody had following the crash

1104
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:29,710
objects this was before Osmo no he was

1105
00:55:35,100 --> 00:55:32,050
highlighting a hard evidence of these

1106
00:55:47,250 --> 00:55:35,110
things being real nothing but pilot

1107
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:47,260
reports they were going to where they

1108
00:56:04,770 --> 00:55:55,930
had pilot reports you're basically

1109
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:04,780
saying yeah said that later later weeks

1110
00:56:13,350 --> 00:56:11,110
and months afterwards if he's yeah yeah

1111
00:56:16,740 --> 00:56:13,360
there's a there's some video I think in

1112
00:56:17,220 --> 00:56:16,750
the 1960s where there's a guy talking

1113
00:56:20,070 --> 00:56:17,230
about

1114
00:56:22,110 --> 00:56:20,080
a UFO sighting that he had and he said

1115
00:56:24,510 --> 00:56:22,120
if one landed right in front of me right

1116
00:56:27,870 --> 00:56:24,520
now I'd never say a single thing after

1117
00:56:30,350 --> 00:56:27,880
what I've been through and I think you

1118
00:56:33,150 --> 00:56:30,360
know that that's a shame and

1119
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:33,160
unfortunately but also I think the

1120
00:56:37,530 --> 00:56:34,450
tables have turned I don't think people

1121
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:37,540
have to worry so much today as they did

1122
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:41,050
I mean apparently the baby has now

1123
00:56:49,260 --> 00:56:45,970
issued a a modification of the policy on

1124
00:56:52,410 --> 00:56:49,270
reporting things basically saying you

1125
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:52,420
should report whatever unusual stuff you

1126
00:57:01,200 --> 00:56:57,130
see and because you don't you never know

1127
00:57:03,300 --> 00:57:01,210
what might be important right right

1128
00:57:05,790 --> 00:57:03,310
we're going to be taking calls in a

1129
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:05,800
little while there's another question in

1130
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:07,330
the chat room I can't always get to the

1131
00:57:13,710 --> 00:57:11,050
questions but I'm able to right now as

1132
00:57:17,070 --> 00:57:13,720
an optical physicist what are the ways

1133
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:17,080
that you can spot a real craft what you

1134
00:57:23,850 --> 00:57:20,290
consider a rail craft in photos that's a

1135
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:23,860
question in the chat room no it's a good

1136
00:58:22,059 --> 00:57:51,110
[Music]

1137
00:58:24,930 --> 00:58:22,069
just a bird flying by something like

1138
00:58:27,970 --> 00:58:24,940
that there are some photos which

1139
00:58:32,049 --> 00:58:27,980
structures brightness structure and

1140
00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:32,059
shape and so on the real object out

1141
00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:36,049
there and it's not just a bird stray

1142
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:39,440
airplane or a balloon that might be on

1143
00:58:47,249 --> 00:58:46,050
the sky between the rural testimony

1144
00:58:51,789 --> 00:58:47,259
[Music]

1145
00:58:54,670 --> 00:58:51,799
something that can't be can't be

1146
00:58:56,490 --> 00:58:54,680
something known have some say some way

1147
00:59:01,230 --> 00:58:56,500
of differentiating it between something

1148
00:59:05,019 --> 00:59:01,240
nobody's taking a video a video or movie

1149
00:59:06,910 --> 00:59:05,029
of an object traveling by now you've got

1150
00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:06,920
dynamics and all of this gives you

1151
00:59:11,859 --> 00:59:09,440
something else that you can look for see

1152
00:59:18,410 --> 00:59:11,869
if his traveling faster than a bird

1153
00:59:22,830 --> 00:59:21,540
all right Bruce Bruce I hate to

1154
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:22,840
interrupt you but we're having audio

1155
00:59:30,090 --> 00:59:25,930
issues and your phone I don't know if

1156
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:30,100
it's away from you know the charger area

1157
00:59:35,790 --> 00:59:32,290
or what but we're not we're not hearing

1158
00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:35,800
what you're saying you wanna there you

1159
00:59:42,780 --> 00:59:40,240
are okay you're back okay yeah so

1160
00:59:49,580 --> 00:59:42,790
basically you're talking about analysis

1161
00:59:54,780 --> 00:59:52,560
between the whatever is in the photo and

1162
00:59:57,390 --> 00:59:54,790
whatever the testimony is I get lots of

1163
00:59:58,770 --> 00:59:57,400
cases where people send pictures and say

1164
01:00:00,420 --> 00:59:58,780
there's an object in the picture I

1165
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:00,430
didn't notice this thing when I took the

1166
01:00:03,150 --> 01:00:02,890
picture yes but there is what could it

1167
01:00:06,510 --> 01:00:03,160
be

1168
01:00:08,310 --> 01:00:06,520
and in a situation like that you have to

1169
01:00:11,100 --> 01:00:08,320
be able to show that it couldn't

1170
01:00:13,740 --> 01:00:11,110
possibly be a bird with its wings folded

1171
01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:13,750
or something or a balloon or whatever

1172
01:00:18,690 --> 01:00:16,960
you can try to analyze as best you can

1173
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:18,700
if somebody comes along in the movie or

1174
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:21,250
video then you have dynamics involved

1175
01:00:26,849 --> 01:00:23,890
that's harder one thing that people

1176
01:00:32,420 --> 01:00:26,859
always worry about is something a fake

1177
01:00:35,460 --> 01:00:32,430
is a mistake or a fake yeah and a

1178
01:00:39,420 --> 01:00:35,470
mistake or a fake is hard when you got

1179
01:00:43,470 --> 01:00:39,430
dynamics involved but yeah somebody sent

1180
01:00:45,690 --> 01:00:43,480
me a picture of lights at night unless

1181
01:00:47,130 --> 01:00:45,700
these lights are doing something really

1182
01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:47,140
strange there's not much you can say

1183
01:00:54,210 --> 01:00:49,200
about it

1184
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:54,220
objects taken during the daytime have to

1185
01:01:01,170 --> 01:00:57,850
be consistent with the lighting and not

1186
01:01:05,010 --> 01:01:01,180
not consistent with a bird you can have

1187
01:01:07,890 --> 01:01:05,020
a bird flying by wings just barely

1188
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:07,900
visible in a photo and conclude that

1189
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:11,890
it's a bird in many cases I end up

1190
01:01:16,109 --> 01:01:13,690
having to say well I can't I can't say

1191
01:01:21,690 --> 01:01:16,119
exactly what it is but I'm not going to

1192
01:01:23,099 --> 01:01:21,700
add it to evidence for UFOs writing

1193
01:01:26,910 --> 01:01:23,109
saucers or whatever I want to call them

1194
01:01:27,820 --> 01:01:26,920
yeah a lot of times they're the things

1195
01:01:31,570 --> 01:01:27,830
that people see

1196
01:01:36,220 --> 01:01:31,580
or a bug or a bird I had someone whom

1197
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:36,230
recently sent me some news video during

1198
01:01:41,830 --> 01:01:39,530
a news show and they said was that a UFO

1199
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:41,840
and you know my first thought was that

1200
01:01:46,090 --> 01:01:44,240
at the bug you know kind of close to the

1201
01:01:48,190 --> 01:01:46,100
lens you know going by really quickly

1202
01:01:51,460 --> 01:01:48,200
but I didn't know you know in particular

1203
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:51,470
but it would you say that the most

1204
01:01:56,410 --> 01:01:53,690
common thing as far as what people

1205
01:01:58,360 --> 01:01:56,420
thinking they're videoing when they

1206
01:02:00,700 --> 01:01:58,370
think they're videoing a UFO that they

1207
01:02:02,860 --> 01:02:00,710
didn't see live but they look back is

1208
01:02:21,580 --> 01:02:02,870
that the most common you know a bug or a

1209
01:02:24,820 --> 01:02:21,590
bird and you get an image and some place

1210
01:02:27,310 --> 01:02:24,830
in the picture which is appears blurry

1211
01:02:29,590 --> 01:02:27,320
doesn't have a hard at hard edges to the

1212
01:02:32,590 --> 01:02:29,600
image then you can argue that the

1213
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:32,600
whatever it was was moving perhaps close

1214
01:02:38,290 --> 01:02:36,170
to the camera should be a bug traveling

1215
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:38,300
at some distance the witness might say

1216
01:02:44,860 --> 01:02:41,810
that he the witness says he didn't see

1217
01:02:46,330 --> 01:02:44,870
anything the chances are it's a bug yep

1218
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:46,340
something that you wouldn't pay any

1219
01:02:51,130 --> 01:02:48,650
attention to anyway the witness says oh

1220
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:51,140
I saw this craft come down and hover and

1221
01:02:58,090 --> 01:02:54,290
zip off or whatever and then you've got

1222
01:03:00,220 --> 01:02:58,100
more to work with and as I said you have

1223
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:00,230
to make establish that the photo was

1224
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:04,370
consistent with a you've got plenty of

1225
01:03:10,090 --> 01:03:07,490
stuff to work with one of the most data

1226
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:10,100
rich cases that I ever investigated was

1227
01:03:17,830 --> 01:03:12,410
the New Zealand sightings of December

1228
01:03:19,870 --> 01:03:17,840
31st 1978 which involved just about

1229
01:03:22,210 --> 01:03:19,880
everything you could ask for you've got

1230
01:03:24,910 --> 01:03:22,220
two radar guys watching on the ground

1231
01:03:27,370 --> 01:03:24,920
radar you got the pilot and co-pilot of

1232
01:03:30,910 --> 01:03:27,380
this freighter aircraft they have radar

1233
01:03:32,590 --> 01:03:30,920
in the airplane and you have a very

1234
01:03:34,630 --> 01:03:32,600
unusual situation where you have a news

1235
01:03:39,550 --> 01:03:34,640
crew on board and those crew has a

1236
01:03:41,789 --> 01:03:39,560
caller movie film they have a tape

1237
01:03:44,849 --> 01:03:41,799
recorder so they can tape there

1238
01:03:46,949 --> 01:03:44,859
in real time and there's a tape recorder

1239
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:46,959
of the air traffic control center of the

1240
01:03:52,229 --> 01:03:49,359
radar room so you know what the radar

1241
01:03:54,839 --> 01:03:52,239
people are saying and you can almost

1242
01:03:59,269 --> 01:03:54,849
regenerate such a minute-by-minute

1243
01:04:03,689 --> 01:03:59,279
with all this information and involved

1244
01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:03,699
lights that could not be explained of

1245
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:07,209
various types as the airplane was flying

1246
01:04:13,169 --> 01:04:10,170
from Wellington New Zealand to

1247
01:04:15,660 --> 01:04:13,179
Christchurch one o'clock in the morning

1248
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:15,670
for one set of sightings and then a

1249
01:04:21,079 --> 01:04:17,890
couple of hours so later they flew back

1250
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:21,089
north and through the same area

1251
01:04:27,989 --> 01:04:23,890
what east of the South Island of New

1252
01:04:30,689 --> 01:04:27,999
Zealand and they saw and filmed more

1253
01:04:33,689 --> 01:04:30,699
lights including a light which it's

1254
01:04:36,599 --> 01:04:33,699
almost like creature whatever was

1255
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:36,609
running this light was like mimicking

1256
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:39,130
the flashing red light that was on top

1257
01:04:42,239 --> 01:04:40,569
of the aircraft the aircraft had a

1258
01:04:44,099 --> 01:04:42,249
flashing red lay on top and a flashing

1259
01:04:46,410 --> 01:04:44,109
red light on the bottom these are

1260
01:04:48,870 --> 01:04:46,420
standard lighting for the aircraft yeah

1261
01:04:52,049 --> 01:04:48,880
and this object with 20 miles away

1262
01:04:54,569 --> 01:04:52,059
according to radar and it was having a

1263
01:04:58,709 --> 01:04:54,579
flashing light flashing in the same rate

1264
01:05:01,849 --> 01:04:58,719
as the lights on the on the airplane hmm

1265
01:05:04,589 --> 01:05:01,859
very strange situation we really

1266
01:05:07,169 --> 01:05:04,599
requires a several hours discussion all

1267
01:05:11,099 --> 01:05:07,179
by yourself you know of course I also

1268
01:05:16,410 --> 01:05:11,109
got involved with the sightings in Gulf

1269
01:05:19,859 --> 01:05:16,420
Breeze starting in 1987 with ed Walters

1270
01:05:21,569 --> 01:05:19,869
photos and going through the dozens of

1271
01:05:24,660 --> 01:05:21,579
other witnesses who saw things over the

1272
01:05:29,219 --> 01:05:24,670
following couple of months that was a

1273
01:05:32,130 --> 01:05:29,229
extremely data-rich situation all the

1274
01:05:35,249 --> 01:05:32,140
stuff is to some extent or sometimes to

1275
01:05:38,509 --> 01:05:35,259
a large extent on my website which I'll

1276
01:05:47,999 --> 01:05:38,519
give again brew Mac mysite.com

1277
01:05:50,219 --> 01:05:48,009
VR UMUC my si de comm Bruce there's a

1278
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:50,229
there's been controversy over the years

1279
01:05:55,559 --> 01:05:54,160
I've heard about the Gulf Breeze are at

1280
01:05:59,759 --> 01:05:55,569
least at least part of

1281
01:06:04,920 --> 01:05:59,769
or someone involved in in that in that

1282
01:06:09,329 --> 01:06:04,930
situation is the real estate developer

1283
01:06:11,939 --> 01:06:09,339
or whoever it was am I am I getting I'm

1284
01:06:16,829 --> 01:06:11,949
not sure if I'm getting my actually

1285
01:06:23,599 --> 01:06:16,839
historic part of that wrong or not but

1286
01:06:27,299 --> 01:06:23,609
was edy Walters did his story pan out

1287
01:06:32,819 --> 01:06:27,309
all the way or was it was there some

1288
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:32,829
issues there were plenty of issues big

1289
01:06:38,579 --> 01:06:36,729
big argument between being between Milan

1290
01:06:41,099 --> 01:06:38,589
and Koufos as to whether or not it was

1291
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:41,109
real those of us who actually talked to

1292
01:06:46,650 --> 01:06:44,400
head and we're on the spot interviewing

1293
01:06:48,350 --> 01:06:46,660
tended to believe that he was telling

1294
01:06:49,699 --> 01:06:48,360
the truth

1295
01:06:58,199 --> 01:06:49,709
[Music]

1296
01:07:01,949 --> 01:06:58,209
in the MUFON symposium and 19 1990 I

1297
01:07:05,099 --> 01:07:01,959
think called Gulf Breeze without Edie

1298
01:07:06,630 --> 01:07:05,109
and which I discussed all the sightings

1299
01:07:10,769 --> 01:07:06,640
that occurred or many other things that

1300
01:07:12,299 --> 01:07:10,779
occurred reports by people who were not

1301
01:07:15,779 --> 01:07:12,309
even friends of Ed didn't know who he

1302
01:07:17,759 --> 01:07:15,789
was there were literally hundreds of

1303
01:07:21,329 --> 01:07:17,769
reports or a period of six months there

1304
01:07:24,239 --> 01:07:21,339
and sightings continued on starting and

1305
01:07:27,689 --> 01:07:24,249
starting in November of 1987 the first

1306
01:07:32,009 --> 01:07:27,699
burst of sightings continued through the

1307
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:32,019
spring of 1988 and until the July of

1308
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:34,690
1988 and then the sighting rate dropped

1309
01:07:41,279 --> 01:07:37,359
precipitously and started up again in

1310
01:07:44,759 --> 01:07:41,289
1990 late 1990 and was a so-called red

1311
01:07:48,630 --> 01:07:44,769
bubble sightings that of some object

1312
01:07:50,779 --> 01:07:48,640
moving through the sky and other other

1313
01:07:53,789 --> 01:07:50,789
things seen moving through the sky

1314
01:07:55,949 --> 01:07:53,799
shouldn't have been there at the very

1315
01:07:58,859 --> 01:07:55,959
least because there was a landing

1316
01:08:02,969 --> 01:07:58,869
landing zone for that's Pensacola

1317
01:08:08,580 --> 01:08:02,979
Airport at any rate there on my website

1318
01:08:11,730 --> 01:08:08,590
I've got a number of cases that

1319
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:11,740
photos and photo analysis I also have a

1320
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:14,890
long discussion guide my name of Jerry

1321
01:08:23,370 --> 01:08:18,850
black who's now dead challenge

1322
01:08:26,310 --> 01:08:23,380
challenged me to explain to prove that

1323
01:08:31,140 --> 01:08:26,320
actually took I was telling the truth

1324
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:31,150
and this discussion that I had with him

1325
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:35,050
has posted on my website what do I have

1326
01:08:44,460 --> 01:08:38,730
to go ahead very long and detailed

1327
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:44,470
situation and and the move are

1328
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:47,050
supportive in 1988 I gave an impromptu

1329
01:08:52,110 --> 01:08:49,089
the lecture on the Gulf Breeze sightings

1330
01:08:58,050 --> 01:08:52,120
everybody was waiting some comment on

1331
01:09:00,440 --> 01:08:58,060
what was going on and the real key to

1332
01:09:03,390 --> 01:09:00,450
proof that this is real or his and

1333
01:09:08,130 --> 01:09:03,400
stereo photographs he's still the only

1334
01:09:11,490 --> 01:09:08,140
person who ever takes the photograph and

1335
01:09:13,980 --> 01:09:11,500
his stereo photos were taken with a very

1336
01:09:16,590 --> 01:09:13,990
special camera that I had him build call

1337
01:09:19,050 --> 01:09:16,600
this self-referencing stereo camera and

1338
01:09:22,380 --> 01:09:19,060
which he used two cameras two feet apart

1339
01:09:24,660 --> 01:09:22,390
and click the shutters now these these

1340
01:09:28,020 --> 01:09:24,670
two cameras at the same time generating

1341
01:09:32,220 --> 01:09:28,030
a parallax between the cameras and that

1342
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:32,230
are distance measurement he had a

1343
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:36,970
sighting on May 1 of 1988 which in which

1344
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:38,650
he took stereo photos that could not

1345
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:39,839
have been faked

1346
01:09:45,300 --> 01:09:42,850
certainly not by had it took me a long

1347
01:09:48,329 --> 01:09:45,310
time how one might be able to fake

1348
01:09:51,590 --> 01:09:48,339
stereo photos and I'm sure that II

1349
01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:51,600
didn't figure out and if he even tried

1350
01:09:56,340 --> 01:09:53,710
anyway there are a number of witnesses

1351
01:09:59,430 --> 01:09:56,350
down there who reported the same object

1352
01:10:03,770 --> 01:09:59,440
that I did including the Blue Beam the

1353
01:10:05,970 --> 01:10:03,780
Blue Beam that had photographed yeah

1354
01:10:11,010 --> 01:10:05,980
they're one of the sightings in December

1355
01:10:14,370 --> 01:10:11,020
of 1987 other people saw the same Blue

1356
01:10:17,250 --> 01:10:14,380
Beam I've noted in literature blue beams

1357
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:17,260
and other sightings as well over the

1358
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:22,400
years well it's a long long discussion I

1359
01:10:26,220 --> 01:10:24,530
the MUFON symposium I gave us impromptu

1360
01:10:28,540 --> 01:10:26,230
the lecture that took about two hours

1361
01:10:31,660 --> 01:10:28,550
just to get through the stuff that had

1362
01:10:32,710 --> 01:10:31,670
happened between November 1987 and May

1363
01:10:36,340 --> 01:10:32,720
of 1988

1364
01:10:38,050 --> 01:10:36,350
and at that time I was nobody knew that

1365
01:10:41,310 --> 01:10:38,060
there was going to be a continuation of

1366
01:10:45,250 --> 01:10:41,320
sightings over the next almost ten years

1367
01:10:47,380 --> 01:10:45,260
before they died out completely well you

1368
01:10:51,610 --> 01:10:47,390
know one of the things up I had last

1369
01:10:53,710 --> 01:10:51,620
week I believe it was last week maybe

1370
01:10:57,760 --> 01:10:53,720
was a week before her I had been Hansen

1371
01:11:00,370 --> 01:10:57,770
on and we're talking about I forget

1372
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:00,380
exactly what he called it but it's kind

1373
01:11:06,340 --> 01:11:02,570
of like enhancing like a fist or E is

1374
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:06,350
not is not big enough you know people

1375
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:09,530
tend to want to enhance it somehow it

1376
01:11:14,980 --> 01:11:11,360
was the week prior to that was in last

1377
01:11:21,850 --> 01:11:14,990
week I had Michael Hall on last week

1378
01:11:24,010 --> 01:11:21,860
so prior the week before so I can't

1379
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:24,020
remember your exact his exact term for

1380
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:27,410
it but I know there was things seen in

1381
01:11:32,140 --> 01:11:30,290
the Gulf Breeze but also I think Edie if

1382
01:11:34,510 --> 01:11:32,150
I have the story right

1383
01:11:37,740 --> 01:11:34,520
I think Edie was known for taking a

1384
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:37,750
picture of a craft in his backyard and

1385
01:11:45,730 --> 01:11:41,450
once he sold his property someone found

1386
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:45,740
a model underneath some insulation in

1387
01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:50,090
his garage that matched the photo am I

1388
01:11:53,980 --> 01:11:52,370
getting that right there was a Menzer

1389
01:12:00,610 --> 01:11:53,990
and mr. Menzer I believe it was

1390
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:00,620
something like that so what did you look

1391
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:04,730
into the that part of it oh yeah became

1392
01:12:12,130 --> 01:12:07,010
a big news story and the Gulf Breeze

1393
01:12:15,690 --> 01:12:12,140
Pensacola area and men's I found this

1394
01:12:18,940 --> 01:12:15,700
thing when he was looking for water pipe

1395
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:18,950
it gets very detailed you'd be surprised

1396
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:22,130
when you get into a UFO research you get

1397
01:12:26,440 --> 01:12:24,410
into analyzing and investigating things

1398
01:12:31,390 --> 01:12:26,450
that have seemingly nothing to do with

1399
01:12:33,940 --> 01:12:31,400
the UFOs in this case had to do with the

1400
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:33,950
creation of a model out of materials

1401
01:12:38,709 --> 01:12:35,690
that it used to

1402
01:12:42,189 --> 01:12:38,719
make a design drawing of a house a

1403
01:12:45,490 --> 01:12:42,199
blueprint and then whoever did this

1404
01:12:48,580 --> 01:12:45,500
stuck it under some insulation and the

1405
01:12:51,250 --> 01:12:48,590
Attic a house now the way the house was

1406
01:12:53,979 --> 01:12:51,260
designed you could go into the go into

1407
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:53,989
the garage area if the garage door was

1408
01:13:02,470 --> 01:12:56,570
open you go into the garage area up a

1409
01:13:05,290 --> 01:13:02,480
stairway to a second level that was it

1410
01:13:07,870 --> 01:13:05,300
was at the the ceiling level of a the

1411
01:13:10,930 --> 01:13:07,880
main house and you could crawl from a

1412
01:13:15,790 --> 01:13:10,940
floor joist to joist if you want to talk

1413
01:13:21,550 --> 01:13:15,800
about the beams go across the area and

1414
01:13:24,430 --> 01:13:21,560
hold the ceiling together and mr. Menzer

1415
01:13:28,510 --> 01:13:24,440
was looking for a water pipe to connect

1416
01:13:32,140 --> 01:13:28,520
up his as the ice maker of his

1417
01:13:34,810 --> 01:13:32,150
refrigerator there should have been a

1418
01:13:40,330 --> 01:13:34,820
little pipe sticking out from the wall

1419
01:13:42,310 --> 01:13:40,340
with a faucet on it had installed before

1420
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:42,320
he left the house he had moved out of

1421
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:44,330
the house and sat there for a year so

1422
01:13:49,689 --> 01:13:46,370
before somebody come along and bought it

1423
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:49,699
and a lot of the time the garage door

1424
01:13:55,689 --> 01:13:52,850
was open so somebody could have gotten

1425
01:13:59,200 --> 01:13:55,699
in there and anyway when mr. Messner

1426
01:14:02,800 --> 01:13:59,210
buys the house and late 1989 I think it

1427
01:14:04,689 --> 01:14:02,810
was he wants to connect up this water

1428
01:14:05,890 --> 01:14:04,699
pipe he knows that there's no water pipe

1429
01:14:07,300 --> 01:14:05,900
in the basement because there's no

1430
01:14:09,340 --> 01:14:07,310
basement they don't have basements in

1431
01:14:12,459 --> 01:14:09,350
Florida right at least not over he is

1432
01:14:15,879 --> 01:14:12,469
flat oh he starts looking around up in

1433
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:15,889
the attic for pipes and he's looking he

1434
01:14:21,959 --> 01:14:17,449
starts where he believes is above the

1435
01:14:25,390 --> 01:14:21,969
refrigerator and he starts moving the

1436
01:14:27,879 --> 01:14:25,400
Ronit insulation off to the side as he's

1437
01:14:32,370 --> 01:14:27,889
clearing the area between two floor

1438
01:14:34,390 --> 01:14:32,380
joists and he comes upon this model

1439
01:14:36,340 --> 01:14:34,400
eventually he did find the water pipe

1440
01:14:40,149 --> 01:14:36,350
but this first thing he finds is this

1441
01:14:45,129 --> 01:14:40,159
model that was buried under the very

1442
01:14:46,729 --> 01:14:45,139
very under the blown insulation and he

1443
01:14:48,620 --> 01:14:46,739
thought that was kind of interests

1444
01:14:50,930 --> 01:14:48,630
you heard about head sightings it's all

1445
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,940
but not paid much attention to Italy it

1446
01:14:56,660 --> 01:14:52,800
hadn't been in the house for a year over

1447
01:15:00,380 --> 01:14:56,670
a year by that time so he just said this

1448
01:15:03,350 --> 01:15:00,390
model on a flaw shelf and let it sit

1449
01:15:07,030 --> 01:15:03,360
there the time being and then that was

1450
01:15:12,890 --> 01:15:07,040
happening in December January December

1451
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:12,900
17 that December 17 1989 December 89 er

1452
01:15:19,820 --> 01:15:16,530
or January of 90 and this model was

1453
01:15:23,420 --> 01:15:19,830
sitting there until something like March

1454
01:15:25,220 --> 01:15:23,430
of 1990 when a local reporter who was

1455
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:25,230
doing since as you said he was doing

1456
01:15:33,979 --> 01:15:30,719
stories on the ed Walters case came to

1457
01:15:37,550 --> 01:15:33,989
the door of mr. Messner was now mr.

1458
01:15:41,330 --> 01:15:37,560
Wenders house and asked mr. three three

1459
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:41,340
questions number one have you seen any

1460
01:15:47,390 --> 01:15:45,330
UFOs immense I said no number two have

1461
01:15:50,090 --> 01:15:47,400
you seen any photos of a UFO lying

1462
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:50,100
around Amanda said no and as the other

1463
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:51,810
guy says have you seen any models long

1464
01:15:57,680 --> 01:15:55,170
around which course mender said yeah he

1465
01:16:00,770 --> 01:15:57,690
had found this model it's not a little

1466
01:16:03,470 --> 01:16:00,780
suspicious the reporter said he was

1467
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:03,480
canvassing the neighborhood to find out

1468
01:16:06,979 --> 01:16:04,650
if there were any other witnesses around

1469
01:16:11,530 --> 01:16:06,989
turned out the only person he spoke to

1470
01:16:17,300 --> 01:16:11,540
it was men sir I'm canvassing any right

1471
01:16:19,010 --> 01:16:17,310
the reporter took it to the headquarters

1472
01:16:26,450 --> 01:16:19,020
of the newspaper and they had this big

1473
01:16:29,540 --> 01:16:26,460
front page issue this Marvel feature and

1474
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:29,550
the claim of this model was made by ed

1475
01:16:36,050 --> 01:16:33,210
Walters and was the cause of many of the

1476
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:36,060
pictures actually the Marvel itself did

1477
01:16:43,990 --> 01:16:39,330
not exactly match any of the UFO images

1478
01:16:46,670 --> 01:16:44,000
that it had there was there was that

1479
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:46,680
evidence used as evidence against him

1480
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:50,489
then the following week a young man came

1481
01:16:56,220 --> 01:16:52,770
forward to say he had been with Edwin

1482
01:16:59,820 --> 01:16:56,230
head-fake photos but this

1483
01:17:01,980 --> 01:16:59,830
this young man's testimony by itself was

1484
01:17:05,370 --> 01:17:01,990
questionable because this young man

1485
01:17:07,530 --> 01:17:05,380
presented a series of five or six

1486
01:17:10,950 --> 01:17:07,540
pictures of UFO which he said he had

1487
01:17:13,770 --> 01:17:10,960
taken himself so he's accusing other

1488
01:17:16,860 --> 01:17:13,780
faking pictures and saying he he took

1489
01:17:20,250 --> 01:17:16,870
pictures himself it gets very very

1490
01:17:23,190 --> 01:17:20,260
complicated all the side stuff that goes

1491
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:23,200
on and proving or disproving a UFO case

1492
01:17:30,060 --> 01:17:27,610
and the the trunk of the Gulf Breeze

1493
01:17:32,100 --> 01:17:30,070
sightings cases sort of like the epitome

1494
01:17:35,460 --> 01:17:32,110
of that but I think I said they were

1495
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:35,470
also a lot of evidence in heads favor he

1496
01:17:41,430 --> 01:17:39,010
was especially tracked day by day by the

1497
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:41,440
mule investigators that were involved

1498
01:17:49,530 --> 01:17:46,890
and he was happy to take pictures with a

1499
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:49,540
stereo camera or lens camera known as an

1500
01:17:53,820 --> 01:17:52,570
in slow camera as a two inch spacing two

1501
01:17:56,340 --> 01:17:53,830
and a half inch spacing between the

1502
01:17:59,120 --> 01:17:56,350
other lenses which can be used in stereo

1503
01:18:01,680 --> 01:17:59,130
effect the same way as your eyeballs

1504
01:18:03,900 --> 01:18:01,690
typical typical eyeballs are about two

1505
01:18:05,910 --> 01:18:03,910
and a half inches apart and so they

1506
01:18:07,230 --> 01:18:05,920
allow you to look at something from two

1507
01:18:12,590 --> 01:18:07,240
different directions at the same time

1508
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:12,600
and get a stereo effective 3d and it was

1509
01:18:18,480 --> 01:18:16,210
this this camera by itself would blow

1510
01:18:21,150 --> 01:18:18,490
out of the water the claim that Ed was

1511
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:21,160
taking a picture of a model maybe 10

1512
01:18:25,440 --> 01:18:23,770
feet away from the camera a model in the

1513
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:25,450
darkroom and then going outside and

1514
01:18:29,310 --> 01:18:27,010
taking a picture of the outside and

1515
01:18:32,190 --> 01:18:29,320
getting a double exposure he could he

1516
01:18:34,500 --> 01:18:32,200
could take double exposures with his old

1517
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:34,510
Polaroid camera he didn't know anything

1518
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:36,250
about double exposure so far as I could

1519
01:18:41,550 --> 01:18:39,610
tell but anyway he was given a stereo

1520
01:18:43,950 --> 01:18:41,560
camera and told of this stereo camera

1521
01:18:46,110 --> 01:18:43,960
will show generally four pictures at one

1522
01:18:47,730 --> 01:18:46,120
time on one shot and we can send these

1523
01:18:50,700 --> 01:18:47,740
different pictures to different analysts

1524
01:18:53,460 --> 01:18:50,710
and get much faster data analysis he was

1525
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:53,470
not told that the parallax between the

1526
01:18:57,570 --> 01:18:54,850
two other lenses would allow them to

1527
01:18:59,340 --> 01:18:57,580
these distinguish between a Marlys a

1528
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,350
model with ten feet or something away

1529
01:19:05,100 --> 01:19:01,600
versus some real I think that's hundreds

1530
01:19:06,030 --> 01:19:05,110
of feet away and so he went out and

1531
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:06,040
after

1532
01:19:12,750 --> 01:19:08,970
period of time actually came back with

1533
01:19:17,100 --> 01:19:12,760
pictures pictures of a UFO that went

1534
01:19:19,650 --> 01:19:17,110
flying by and on the film on the camera

1535
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:19,660
the camera when it was calibrated turned

1536
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:22,930
out to these object was a two and a half

1537
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:25,090
feet long and about 40 feet away or

1538
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:29,170
something like that as I recall it was

1539
01:19:34,740 --> 01:19:31,570
it wasn't something that was it would be

1540
01:19:36,660 --> 01:19:34,750
done in his bathroom or whatever that

1541
01:19:39,810 --> 01:19:36,670
had been claimed when doing the double

1542
01:19:42,060 --> 01:19:39,820
exposures so the felt like a sec worked

1543
01:19:44,130 --> 01:19:42,070
well whenever ahead of did it it was

1544
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:44,140
clear that he was not afraid either he

1545
01:19:50,430 --> 01:19:48,370
was such a such a bold hoaxer and so

1546
01:19:52,620 --> 01:19:50,440
confident and his capability that he

1547
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:52,630
could take a stereo picture with a small

1548
01:19:56,820 --> 01:19:55,090
camera I challenged him to take a stereo

1549
01:19:59,310 --> 01:19:56,830
picture with the cameras that were

1550
01:20:01,920 --> 01:19:59,320
separated by one by the lenses were

1551
01:20:06,060 --> 01:20:01,930
separated by a foot he did me one better

1552
01:20:09,570 --> 01:20:06,070
and it went to two feet I told I told

1553
01:20:11,460 --> 01:20:09,580
him by this time the stereo effect with

1554
01:20:14,550 --> 01:20:11,470
our arms the rule was allow us to tell

1555
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:14,560
how far away the object was and I'm sure

1556
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:17,170
it wasn't lost on him that if it would

1557
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:19,330
have been ten feet away this stereo

1558
01:20:27,540 --> 01:20:23,850
camera would nail him harder to the wall

1559
01:20:30,810 --> 01:20:27,550
Wow took he took several pictures of

1560
01:20:34,440 --> 01:20:30,820
this stereo camera which or interesting

1561
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:34,450
but not convincing but on May 1 he got a

1562
01:20:39,390 --> 01:20:37,600
picture at nighttime of two objects over

1563
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:39,400
the Santa Rosa sound there out over

1564
01:20:42,930 --> 01:20:41,410
water we know what direction he was

1565
01:20:44,850 --> 01:20:42,940
looking at and he had an automatic

1566
01:20:48,480 --> 01:20:44,860
calibration of the stereo effect of the

1567
01:20:52,170 --> 01:20:48,490
camera because he also had showed in the

1568
01:20:55,610 --> 01:20:52,180
can of photos the street like the lights

1569
01:21:01,050 --> 01:20:55,620
along the Pyke's bridge that connects

1570
01:21:05,310 --> 01:21:01,060
Gulf Breeze with a pensacola pensacola

1571
01:21:09,030 --> 01:21:05,320
peninsula so we knew how far away those

1572
01:21:12,690 --> 01:21:09,040
lights were and we saw his stereo camera

1573
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:12,700
the shift in position of the images

1574
01:21:17,340 --> 01:21:14,890
relative the UFO images relative to the

1575
01:21:19,620 --> 01:21:17,350
distant lights and then allowed us to

1576
01:21:21,780 --> 01:21:19,630
calibrate the parallax effect

1577
01:21:24,740 --> 01:21:21,790
and calculate that one object was about

1578
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:24,750
450 feet away if I recall correctly and

1579
01:21:30,810 --> 01:21:27,040
20 feet and diameter or something like

1580
01:21:33,930 --> 01:21:30,820
that and the smaller the smaller object

1581
01:21:35,790 --> 01:21:33,940
was a hundred and thirty feet away and

1582
01:21:37,860 --> 01:21:35,800
on two and a half feet in diameter and

1583
01:21:39,660 --> 01:21:37,870
length the same object that he had

1584
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:39,670
photographed with an installed serial

1585
01:21:44,730 --> 01:21:40,210
camera

1586
01:21:46,530 --> 01:21:44,740
a couple of months before so no one has

1587
01:21:49,430 --> 01:21:46,540
ever taken stereo fiction pictures like

1588
01:21:52,740 --> 01:21:49,440
II did and he never turned down

1589
01:21:57,240 --> 01:21:52,750
opportunity to do something that would

1590
01:22:00,390 --> 01:21:57,250
prove he was telling the truth so I am

1591
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:00,400
basically I had to admit that he had

1592
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:02,890
done something that was was convincing

1593
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:05,850
when he did these stereo pictures they

1594
01:22:10,470 --> 01:22:08,890
they could be hoaxed but only if you

1595
01:22:13,700 --> 01:22:10,480
knew how to do it you have to do some

1596
01:22:18,690 --> 01:22:13,710
mathematical calculations in order to

1597
01:22:20,790 --> 01:22:18,700
figure out exactly how to build the

1598
01:22:26,220 --> 01:22:20,800
thing and make it what make it work like

1599
01:22:28,250 --> 01:22:26,230
was synthesizing the the parallax over

1600
01:22:31,590 --> 01:22:28,260
the following years had got more photos

1601
01:22:34,290 --> 01:22:31,600
but I was over the following years that

1602
01:22:38,100 --> 01:22:34,300
other people had stuff happening as well

1603
01:22:40,440 --> 01:22:38,110
especially starting in November of 1990

1604
01:22:42,480 --> 01:22:40,450
with the red bubble sightings red thing

1605
01:22:45,510 --> 01:22:42,490
to go through the sky and suddenly turn

1606
01:22:48,510 --> 01:22:45,520
into a burst of white it could have been

1607
01:22:50,400 --> 01:22:48,520
a parsec display of some sort but it was

1608
01:22:53,130 --> 01:22:50,410
a dynamic display that was moving and

1609
01:22:56,210 --> 01:22:53,140
sometimes would be moving against the

1610
01:23:01,230 --> 01:22:56,220
wind there across the wind and no but no

1611
01:23:04,590 --> 01:23:01,240
no debris and no little airplanes no

1612
01:23:07,890 --> 01:23:04,600
evidence on the ground was ever found to

1613
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:07,900
explain these bubble sightings I saw one

1614
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:10,330
of the things myself in September of

1615
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:13,120
1992 really I went out there and they

1616
01:23:18,750 --> 01:23:14,650
said they were seeing rings of light

1617
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:18,760
both of the sky and I arrived on Friday

1618
01:23:31,010 --> 01:23:23,920
night September 15th 1992 this is in my

1619
01:23:37,950 --> 01:23:34,380
look Bruce who should just fade it out

1620
01:23:41,580 --> 01:23:37,960
again you sounded they're here you're

1621
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:41,590
back yeah you're back okay I'm just

1622
01:23:48,590 --> 01:23:43,570
saying he had on a website uh-huh

1623
01:23:51,090 --> 01:23:48,600
I saw this ring lights up here and

1624
01:23:54,450 --> 01:23:51,100
examined it carefully I had it I had

1625
01:23:56,550 --> 01:23:54,460
with me a big ear microphone if you know

1626
01:23:58,590 --> 01:23:56,560
what that is it's one of these long

1627
01:24:01,229 --> 01:23:58,600
distance microphones so you hear whisper

1628
01:24:03,990 --> 01:24:01,239
100 feet away or something like that huh

1629
01:24:06,630 --> 01:24:04,000
and I was pointed up towards this object

1630
01:24:09,810 --> 01:24:06,640
this is a ring of lights I figured it

1631
01:24:11,729 --> 01:24:09,820
had to be on a structure and it was

1632
01:24:16,500 --> 01:24:11,739
moving clearly moving so I had to have

1633
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:16,510
some driving force was if it was a

1634
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:18,610
Marvel there was some some things

1635
01:24:23,700 --> 01:24:20,770
attached I should be able to hear the

1636
01:24:27,180 --> 01:24:23,710
Marlin the engine noise was my ear big

1637
01:24:30,330 --> 01:24:27,190
ear but I heard nothing other people no

1638
01:24:33,710 --> 01:24:30,340
no nobody else heard anything either but

1639
01:24:36,750 --> 01:24:33,720
I didn't call the guys in white coats

1640
01:24:41,970 --> 01:24:36,760
was a butterfly nets to come and take me

1641
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:41,980
away hoho because hey Bruce are you up

1642
01:24:46,229 --> 01:24:43,810
are you up for taking a call we have a

1643
01:24:48,710 --> 01:24:46,239
caller just called in sure I'll call her

1644
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:48,720
your first name where you calling from

1645
01:24:53,550 --> 01:24:51,850
beaver Morgan hi Steve welcome to the

1646
01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:53,560
show you have a question for our guest

1647
01:24:58,080 --> 01:24:56,050
Bruce I do

1648
01:25:00,440 --> 01:24:58,090
I just somebody wondered about through

1649
01:25:02,670 --> 01:25:00,450
the years um so the way they study

1650
01:25:05,729 --> 01:25:02,680
planets the way they study the universe

1651
01:25:08,550 --> 01:25:05,739
is they to use spectral analysis and

1652
01:25:11,180 --> 01:25:08,560
study the properties of the light why

1653
01:25:17,130 --> 01:25:11,190
why can't they do that same thing with

1654
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:17,140
why can't they study the light for these

1655
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:19,930
sightings why can't they name something

1656
01:25:26,580 --> 01:25:23,170
at the sky like where there's like a

1657
01:25:29,490 --> 01:25:26,590
current UFO flap and and like all the

1658
01:25:31,260 --> 01:25:29,500
big sightings they all have like big

1659
01:25:33,770 --> 01:25:31,270
Phoenix lights that had lights across

1660
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:33,780
the leading edge a lot of the triangles

1661
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:36,489
sightings have lights across the leading

1662
01:25:41,490 --> 01:25:39,130
edge and why can't they study the

1663
01:25:43,290 --> 01:25:41,500
properties of the light and then ruler

1664
01:25:47,010 --> 01:25:43,300
the rule

1665
01:25:49,890 --> 01:25:47,020
like known types of aircraft lights and

1666
01:25:51,990 --> 01:25:49,900
things like that yeah well I could be

1667
01:25:54,900 --> 01:25:52,000
done of course you got to have proper

1668
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:54,910
yes prepare for you have cameras with

1669
01:26:01,980 --> 01:25:57,130
the diffraction gratings is installed

1670
01:26:05,180 --> 01:26:01,990
and that requires some expense and so on

1671
01:26:07,290 --> 01:26:05,190
so just you're in luck you might say

1672
01:26:10,500 --> 01:26:07,300
because that happened that Gulf Breeze

1673
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:10,510
they had so many sightings of this red

1674
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:14,170
Bubba there they to say they always took

1675
01:26:17,820 --> 01:26:16,210
measurements and there's several

1676
01:26:19,350 --> 01:26:17,830
different people think photographs at

1677
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:19,360
the same time this object would be

1678
01:26:26,970 --> 01:26:22,770
moving through the sky well ed Walters

1679
01:26:29,430 --> 01:26:26,980
got ahold of a a diffraction grating and

1680
01:26:31,730 --> 01:26:29,440
stuck it into a camera and he had his

1681
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:31,740
camera ready with a diffraction grating

1682
01:26:37,350 --> 01:26:34,210
and there were so many said been so many

1683
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:37,360
sightings are as a result of I don't

1684
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:39,370
know water but they were having

1685
01:26:45,860 --> 01:26:41,530
sometimes a sighting every night for

1686
01:26:48,810 --> 01:26:45,870
days on end and I forget the date now

1687
01:26:51,120 --> 01:26:48,820
one of those days it had this

1688
01:26:56,370 --> 01:26:51,130
diffraction grating in and a red light

1689
01:26:57,870 --> 01:26:56,380
thing appeared and I was it he got a

1690
01:27:03,300 --> 01:26:57,880
photo of it through the diffraction

1691
01:27:05,550 --> 01:27:03,310
grating then they had been accused

1692
01:27:07,530 --> 01:27:05,560
somebody well they didn't know who but

1693
01:27:09,230 --> 01:27:07,540
they were saying somebody was taking

1694
01:27:11,580 --> 01:27:09,240
this whole thing using road flares

1695
01:27:13,260 --> 01:27:11,590
hanging moat road flares from balloons

1696
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:13,270
and let him blow over to say or

1697
01:27:15,960 --> 01:27:14,650
something like that which wasn't which

1698
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:15,970
wouldn't be a very smart thing to do

1699
01:27:23,370 --> 01:27:19,690
because if it fell on a dry grass it

1700
01:27:26,580 --> 01:27:23,380
could start a fire and anyway they had

1701
01:27:28,470 --> 01:27:26,590
available red flare so on the same night

1702
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:28,480
that had got a photo through his

1703
01:27:35,370 --> 01:27:32,050
diffraction grating of a UFO bubble like

1704
01:27:36,990 --> 01:27:35,380
he also got on the same film with the

1705
01:27:40,530 --> 01:27:37,000
same diffraction grating same camera

1706
01:27:42,750 --> 01:27:40,540
same everything a photo of a red road

1707
01:27:44,910 --> 01:27:42,760
flare at about the same distance as the

1708
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:44,920
object had been so that was very

1709
01:27:49,530 --> 01:27:47,650
comparable this is exactly the

1710
01:27:52,740 --> 01:27:49,540
scientific technique you want to do

1711
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:52,750
minimize the variables make sure that

1712
01:27:56,700 --> 01:27:55,330
anything is variable is the same for

1713
01:28:01,470 --> 01:27:56,710
both

1714
01:28:03,090 --> 01:28:01,480
the unknown and one of the known and

1715
01:28:05,610 --> 01:28:03,100
when you compared the diffraction

1716
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:05,620
gratings of these two things the

1717
01:28:09,660 --> 01:28:07,210
diffraction grating of the unknown was

1718
01:28:12,690 --> 01:28:09,670
different from that of the flare so that

1719
01:28:14,250 --> 01:28:12,700
sort of nailed that one case it wasn't a

1720
01:28:17,370 --> 01:28:14,260
road flare we don't know what it was it

1721
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:17,380
wasn't a road flare and when England

1722
01:28:22,470 --> 01:28:20,290
effects degrading so is there like a

1723
01:28:52,890 --> 01:28:22,480
database of light pipes where they can

1724
01:28:54,140 --> 01:28:52,900
just rule out like airplane lights or

1725
01:28:57,770 --> 01:28:54,150
something

1726
01:29:02,220 --> 01:28:57,780
there are regulations for lights of

1727
01:29:04,170 --> 01:29:02,230
things that fly through this guy I meant

1728
01:29:06,780 --> 01:29:04,180
I meant more just ruling it out to the

1729
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:06,790
properties of the light like the you

1730
01:29:12,990 --> 01:29:08,850
know spectral analysis like they do for

1731
01:29:15,990 --> 01:29:13,000
four planets yes well one last question

1732
01:29:17,750 --> 01:29:16,000
one wrote last question when you say

1733
01:29:20,640 --> 01:29:17,760
it's expensive

1734
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:20,650
what can you ballpark what it would cost

1735
01:29:28,890 --> 01:29:27,730
to build something like that well if

1736
01:29:31,440 --> 01:29:28,900
you're gonna try to put a diffraction

1737
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:31,450
grating inside a camera I don't know

1738
01:29:39,770 --> 01:29:34,090
what the fraction grading is cost you

1739
01:29:45,930 --> 01:29:41,090
whoops

1740
01:29:49,410 --> 01:29:45,940
okay Steve you're there right yeah I'm

1741
01:29:52,350 --> 01:29:49,420
here okay we just lost we just lost the

1742
01:29:55,050 --> 01:29:52,360
call so hang in there why don't you drop

1743
01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:55,060
off and I'll get we're gonna have to go

1744
01:30:01,080 --> 01:29:57,610
to break for just a second let me get

1745
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:01,090
Bruce back on the phone okay thanks guys

1746
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:08,270
I'm sorry we had technical draw a

1747
01:30:14,460 --> 01:30:12,130
dropout yeah the phone dropped on poor

1748
01:30:17,180 --> 01:30:14,470
Bruce he was probably in the middle of a

1749
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:17,190
long winded sentence and we lost our

1750
01:30:26,130 --> 01:30:24,850
caller statement it was was UFOs are

1751
01:30:30,630 --> 01:30:26,140
real yeah

1752
01:30:34,230 --> 01:30:30,640
oh that's us Stan Friedman's saying but

1753
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:34,240
well we were having people trying to

1754
01:30:41,910 --> 01:30:37,210
call in - so they're absolutely welcome

1755
01:30:44,780 --> 01:30:41,920
to call back Bruce until someone calls

1756
01:30:47,750 --> 01:30:44,790
back though you were kind of explaining

1757
01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:47,760
I don't know exactly where it dropped

1758
01:30:51,480 --> 01:30:49,930
but you were kind of explaining I don't

1759
01:30:55,800 --> 01:30:51,490
know if you had a thought to finish real

1760
01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:55,810
quickly on asked asked how expensive it

1761
01:31:00,570 --> 01:30:57,130
would be to sell that's right

1762
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:00,580
yeah you gotta have a good camera to

1763
01:31:13,940 --> 01:31:03,730
begin with and then you can get a

1764
01:31:18,780 --> 01:31:13,950
so-called star rating that is 3c Green's

1765
01:31:20,850 --> 01:31:18,790
form a triangle and you stick this in

1766
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:20,860
the camera and it splits the light into

1767
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:25,690
patterns the lines of varying of

1768
01:31:31,260 --> 01:31:28,330
multiple colors as they as a diffraction

1769
01:31:34,620 --> 01:31:31,270
grating creates a diffraction pattern of

1770
01:31:37,500 --> 01:31:34,630
what it is so you could you could get

1771
01:31:40,290 --> 01:31:37,510
some information out of that and the

1772
01:31:42,570 --> 01:31:40,300
star rating is not that expensive 10 20

1773
01:31:44,910 --> 01:31:42,580
30 40 bucks or something like that my

1774
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:44,920
good and diffraction grating could be a

1775
01:31:54,810 --> 01:31:50,410
lot more expensive and of course any

1776
01:31:59,450 --> 01:31:54,820
instrumentation you can use you have

1777
01:32:07,380 --> 01:32:04,740
set up various types of instruments in

1778
01:32:13,979 --> 01:32:07,390
particular places trying to track UFO

1779
01:32:16,020 --> 01:32:13,989
hot spots and get some data that has

1780
01:32:19,229 --> 01:32:16,030
happened a few times go through a

1781
01:32:21,570 --> 01:32:19,239
history of the subject but most mostly

1782
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:21,580
people are stuck with being able to

1783
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:26,050
record things nowadays cell phones yeah

1784
01:32:32,430 --> 01:32:30,370
will record audio and individual you

1785
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:32,440
know what you're doing you can put the

1786
01:32:35,729 --> 01:32:33,730
faction greeting in front of a cell

1787
01:32:38,430 --> 01:32:35,739
phone I suppose and get a diffraction

1788
01:32:41,610 --> 01:32:38,440
pattern that would give you an idea of

1789
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:41,620
the spectrum of the light would you add

1790
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:45,489
a yep yeah thanks thanks for finishing

1791
01:32:49,650 --> 01:32:48,370
Steve's question there and Oregon and so

1792
01:32:51,090 --> 01:32:49,660
the phone is open it's not only going to

1793
01:32:53,490 --> 01:32:51,100
be open for a little while probably only

1794
01:32:56,070 --> 01:32:53,500
be able to get one more question in but

1795
01:32:57,439 --> 01:32:56,080
because we have about 11 minutes left to

1796
01:33:01,470 --> 01:32:57,449
the show

1797
01:33:03,450 --> 01:33:01,480
Bruce someone has written me kind of

1798
01:33:05,430 --> 01:33:03,460
accusing you of something I don't know I

1799
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:05,440
hope you're okay with me bringing this

1800
01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:08,610
up and so you can defend yourself

1801
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:11,650
they're saying that you Ed Walters from

1802
01:33:18,660 --> 01:33:13,570
the Gulf Breeze paid you a large sum of

1803
01:33:20,729 --> 01:33:18,670
money to basically agree with him is

1804
01:33:28,350 --> 01:33:20,739
that where where would a story like that

1805
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:28,360
come from come from history okay when I

1806
01:33:39,050 --> 01:33:32,530
got involved analyzing his case starting

1807
01:33:42,870 --> 01:33:39,060
in February of 1988 IRAs convinced I are

1808
01:33:46,290 --> 01:33:42,880
pretty sure that he was like Billy my

1809
01:33:48,390 --> 01:33:46,300
heir taking zillions of photos he was

1810
01:33:51,870 --> 01:33:48,400
here he was accused of taking too many

1811
01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:51,880
photos well he was a track as I said

1812
01:33:56,310 --> 01:33:54,130
daily basis almost by the beautiful

1813
01:33:59,250 --> 01:33:56,320
investigators once they found out in

1814
01:34:01,979 --> 01:33:59,260
early January who he was and they asked

1815
01:34:07,790 --> 01:34:01,989
me to fly there and give my impressions

1816
01:34:12,049 --> 01:34:10,580
this case was more than just the first

1817
01:34:14,979 --> 01:34:12,059
several pictures that have been

1818
01:34:18,530 --> 01:34:14,989
published in the newspaper I had no idea

1819
01:34:20,510 --> 01:34:18,540
the depth of number number of sightings

1820
01:34:22,850 --> 01:34:20,520
is honor or involved sightings by him

1821
01:34:25,370 --> 01:34:22,860
and by other people as well well I

1822
01:34:28,330 --> 01:34:25,380
tracked things on a day-by-day basis

1823
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:28,340
right through April and May and the June

1824
01:34:37,069 --> 01:34:32,010
up to the point of the muon symposium

1825
01:34:42,950 --> 01:34:37,079
and all during that time I was well the

1826
01:34:47,780 --> 01:34:42,960
Senate of the I managed to get money

1827
01:34:52,390 --> 01:34:47,790
from a UFO organization to travel the

1828
01:35:00,049 --> 01:34:52,400
cost of traveling to Gulf Breeze the the

1829
01:35:03,140 --> 01:35:00,059
airplane costs and I was there for a

1830
01:35:07,189 --> 01:35:03,150
couple of days during which we did

1831
01:35:09,620 --> 01:35:07,199
experiments with Ed's camera and an

1832
01:35:10,850 --> 01:35:09,630
extent the whole whole Saturday starting

1833
01:35:16,870 --> 01:35:10,860
like 10 o'clock in the morning and

1834
01:35:21,890 --> 01:35:16,880
running until 10 o'clock at night why

1835
01:35:23,990 --> 01:35:21,900
following his stereo camera pictures and

1836
01:35:27,500 --> 01:35:24,000
other pictures he took the stereo

1837
01:35:31,189 --> 01:35:27,510
cameras that he built for me my

1838
01:35:33,830 --> 01:35:31,199
direction and he was on May 1 where she

1839
01:35:37,100 --> 01:35:33,840
was able to get a calibrated stereo

1840
01:35:40,339 --> 01:35:37,110
photo to determine the distance and size

1841
01:35:42,439 --> 01:35:40,349
of these two objects I was pretty well

1842
01:35:46,100 --> 01:35:42,449
convinced that this thing was real buddy

1843
01:35:50,359 --> 01:35:46,110
I talked in a the vivant symposium I

1844
01:35:52,729 --> 01:35:50,369
didn't come right out and say a - missed

1845
01:35:59,109 --> 01:35:52,739
opinion I still wanted a possibility

1846
01:36:11,629 --> 01:36:04,270
basically stated my opinion as of June

1847
01:36:16,899 --> 01:36:11,639
1988 there wasn't any talk of a book at

1848
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:16,909
that point so it wasn't until later on

1849
01:36:20,780 --> 01:36:19,650
it asked if I'd be willing to write a

1850
01:36:25,250 --> 01:36:20,790
chapter in the book

1851
01:36:26,780 --> 01:36:25,260
my analysis I said I would and when the

1852
01:36:33,980 --> 01:36:26,790
book was finally published in the spring

1853
01:36:37,820 --> 01:36:33,990
of 1990 had paid me a certain amount of

1854
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:37,830
money for writing the last chapter which

1855
01:36:42,650 --> 01:36:39,690
as I said it was essentially the history

1856
01:36:47,570 --> 01:36:42,660
of my my investigation and while I was

1857
01:36:51,830 --> 01:36:47,580
fighting so I had stated my opinion

1858
01:36:55,840 --> 01:36:51,840
especially at the MUFON symposium and in

1859
01:36:59,920 --> 01:36:55,850
July of that year but there wasn't any

1860
01:37:03,740 --> 01:36:59,930
book talking talking abhorrent Oh

1861
01:37:04,990 --> 01:37:03,750
November of that year later so I did get

1862
01:37:09,350 --> 01:37:05,000
paid something for writing the book

1863
01:37:13,010 --> 01:37:09,360
writing a chapter in the book but was

1864
01:37:16,760 --> 01:37:13,020
all the payment was all long after I had

1865
01:37:19,700 --> 01:37:16,770
already reached a conclusion I see ok

1866
01:37:23,330 --> 01:37:19,710
well that kind of clears that so thank

1867
01:37:25,940 --> 01:37:23,340
you for that so we only have about seven

1868
01:37:28,430 --> 01:37:25,950
minutes left and so I wanted to ask you

1869
01:37:32,990 --> 01:37:28,440
today and in the future what do you

1870
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:33,000
think of you know CGI is tough now for

1871
01:37:36,830 --> 01:37:34,890
people trying to do photo analysis and

1872
01:37:39,410 --> 01:37:36,840
it's not going to get any easier as time

1873
01:37:42,380 --> 01:37:39,420
goes on what do you think are some of

1874
01:37:44,270 --> 01:37:42,390
the challenges for someone like say mark

1875
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:44,280
the antonio's out there doing some photo

1876
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:47,010
analysis and video analysis for people

1877
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:49,170
coming down the road doing this type of

1878
01:37:52,520 --> 01:37:51,090
work trying to figure things out do you

1879
01:37:54,170 --> 01:37:52,530
think it's just going to become more and

1880
01:38:05,920 --> 01:37:54,180
more difficult or do you think these

1881
01:38:08,300 --> 01:38:05,930
things are easy to see but usually

1882
01:38:10,010 --> 01:38:08,310
proving a case or disproving it on a

1883
01:38:13,130 --> 01:38:10,020
circumstantial evidence a lawyer once

1884
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:13,140
told me in a court case they often bring

1885
01:38:19,900 --> 01:38:15,810
in hard evidence or the thing is hard

1886
01:38:23,450 --> 01:38:19,910
evidence related to a crime and then

1887
01:38:25,070 --> 01:38:23,460
this is part of the hard evidence will

1888
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:25,080
stand by itself and there's a

1889
01:38:30,230 --> 01:38:26,730
circumstantial evidence the stories of

1890
01:38:33,290 --> 01:38:30,240
all the people involved and very often

1891
01:38:34,399 --> 01:38:33,300
he said the case can't be made by the

1892
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:34,409
hard evidence because

1893
01:38:44,540 --> 01:38:42,690
they can always hire a professor or PhD

1894
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:44,550
or some somebody to come in and testify

1895
01:38:51,169 --> 01:38:48,449
to the hard evidence isn't any good and

1896
01:38:52,729 --> 01:38:51,179
the case relies on what's called the

1897
01:38:54,709 --> 01:38:52,739
circumstantial evidence all the

1898
01:38:56,990 --> 01:38:54,719
testimony of the witnesses and the same

1899
01:38:59,450 --> 01:38:57,000
thing happens here in UFOs you know to

1900
01:39:01,160 --> 01:38:59,460
take a picture of UFO is illegal they

1901
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:01,170
don't exist so you know it must be

1902
01:39:07,010 --> 01:39:03,810
faking or something like that but you

1903
01:39:10,729 --> 01:39:07,020
might come up with a perfect fake CGI or

1904
01:39:12,140 --> 01:39:10,739
whatever means every double exposures

1905
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:12,150
with several cameras or something

1906
01:39:18,050 --> 01:39:14,210
complicated requiring computer

1907
01:39:21,169 --> 01:39:18,060
calculations and stuff where the picture

1908
01:39:23,060 --> 01:39:21,179
might be perfect in the sense that you

1909
01:39:25,270 --> 01:39:23,070
can't find anything wrong with it then

1910
01:39:28,189 --> 01:39:25,280
you have to throw jump back to the

1911
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:28,199
circumstantial evidence there's a story

1912
01:39:32,540 --> 01:39:30,570
consistent with the picture completely

1913
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:32,550
there any reason to believe that the

1914
01:39:37,820 --> 01:39:36,210
person involved is faking this certainly

1915
01:39:44,030 --> 01:39:37,830
applied to ed Walters people claimed

1916
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:44,040
that he was faking because he well he

1917
01:39:49,100 --> 01:39:47,010
just was a sociopath that they are a

1918
01:39:52,010 --> 01:39:49,110
sociopath they argue somebody who told

1919
01:39:57,399 --> 01:39:52,020
tells lies just for the hell of it here

1920
01:40:02,000 --> 01:39:57,409
was examined by a clinical psychologist

1921
01:40:04,550 --> 01:40:02,010
in Gulf Breeze and found to be

1922
01:40:12,129 --> 01:40:04,560
completely normal and not sociopathic at

1923
01:40:15,500 --> 01:40:12,139
all the clinician actually wrote a

1924
01:40:18,830 --> 01:40:15,510
introduction to Ed's second book on the

1925
01:40:21,590 --> 01:40:18,840
subject because he was so convinced that

1926
01:40:25,070 --> 01:40:21,600
it was not faking this stuff he was

1927
01:40:28,220 --> 01:40:25,080
willing to put his face his fame on the

1928
01:40:30,919 --> 01:40:28,230
line you might say yep claim that Ed was

1929
01:40:33,140 --> 01:40:30,929
telling the truth so the bottom line is

1930
01:40:34,910 --> 01:40:33,150
you got to get the circumstantial

1931
01:40:41,030 --> 01:40:34,920
evidence right the best you can do

1932
01:40:45,129 --> 01:40:41,040
there's a photo here hang stays or Falls

1933
01:40:46,410 --> 01:40:45,139
as depending on what's in the image I

1934
01:40:48,570 --> 01:40:46,420
why

1935
01:40:50,100 --> 01:40:48,580
many years ago 30 years ago or four

1936
01:40:54,090 --> 01:40:50,110
years ago when I work on a trend for

1937
01:40:55,919 --> 01:40:54,100
case a photo a UFO does not make what

1938
01:40:58,410 --> 01:40:55,929
makes the UFO is all the other stuff

1939
01:41:00,330 --> 01:40:58,420
that goes behind it like the transfer

1940
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:00,340
claims claims of the trench Hank hug a

1941
01:41:07,620 --> 01:41:05,290
model from overhead wires and photograph

1942
01:41:08,660 --> 01:41:07,630
the molecules from a distance of 12 feet

1943
01:41:11,790 --> 01:41:08,670
or wherever

1944
01:41:15,930 --> 01:41:11,800
clearly not consistent with their claim

1945
01:41:23,419 --> 01:41:15,940
that the object was very big in hundreds

1946
01:41:26,189 --> 01:41:23,429
of thousand feet away so the hard

1947
01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:26,199
photographic analysis and coming up with

1948
01:41:33,300 --> 01:41:30,610
the same conclusion that Hartman did but

1949
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:33,310
I spent a lot of time also on talking to

1950
01:41:39,570 --> 01:41:36,010
mrs. Trent directly over off and on over

1951
01:41:43,860 --> 01:41:39,580
a period of years and talking to other

1952
01:41:47,700 --> 01:41:43,870
people who had who knew the trench and

1953
01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:47,710
basically building up a circumstantial

1954
01:41:51,060 --> 01:41:49,210
evidence that they were telling the

1955
01:41:53,580 --> 01:41:51,070
truth as opposed to something else

1956
01:41:56,010 --> 01:41:53,590
they were farmers had plenty to do

1957
01:41:58,439 --> 01:41:56,020
besides hanging a model and taking a

1958
01:42:00,330 --> 01:41:58,449
photo of it claiming they had seen a UFO

1959
01:42:03,780 --> 01:42:00,340
they never got any money for their

1960
01:42:07,050 --> 01:42:03,790
pictures they got was a lot of golf

1961
01:42:08,459 --> 01:42:07,060
according to mrs. Trent they get phone

1962
01:42:12,750 --> 01:42:08,469
calls from people to call them up and

1963
01:42:16,770 --> 01:42:12,760
call some of theirs commies and hoaxers

1964
01:42:18,240 --> 01:42:16,780
and all sorts of nasty stuff just out of

1965
01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:18,250
the blue you might say they people were

1966
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:21,130
table until say their say bad things

1967
01:42:25,169 --> 01:42:21,730
about him

1968
01:42:27,660 --> 01:42:25,179
so yeah they could have stopped all that

1969
01:42:30,630 --> 01:42:27,670
very quickly by admitting their hoaxes

1970
01:42:33,990 --> 01:42:30,640
way back in the 1950s instead they stuck

1971
01:42:37,229 --> 01:42:34,000
to their story or word by word they

1972
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:37,239
stuck to their story until yeah death in

1973
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:43,090
1995 or 1996 now there's some their kids

1974
01:42:47,970 --> 01:42:45,730
are alive to you you're somebody who was

1975
01:42:50,540 --> 01:42:47,980
interested to go interview the children

1976
01:42:53,610 --> 01:42:50,550
of the trench you know see if they think

1977
01:42:57,630 --> 01:42:53,620
the trash faked it

1978
01:43:00,600 --> 01:42:57,640
there are I think there is someone that

1979
01:43:03,740 --> 01:43:00,610
is claiming that they see a film

1980
01:43:09,300 --> 01:43:03,750
in that image with a high-definition

1981
01:43:12,530 --> 01:43:09,310
analysis I don't I don't know you know a

1982
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:12,540
claim that's been made by some people

1983
01:43:20,280 --> 01:43:15,970
all right suspension line running from

1984
01:43:24,690 --> 01:43:20,290
the lower of the upper two wires or the

1985
01:43:26,220 --> 01:43:24,700
lower wire hanging a mother when you

1986
01:43:29,610 --> 01:43:26,230
work with the original negatives as I

1987
01:43:37,250 --> 01:43:29,620
did and you take them to the Oak Ridge

1988
01:43:43,680 --> 01:43:37,260
National Laboratory or Pasadena the

1989
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:43,690
Pasadena big laboratory they're not sand

1990
01:43:53,730 --> 01:43:46,930
trying to think of now I'm not thinking

1991
01:43:57,920 --> 01:43:53,740
of I'm thinking of Livermore examine not

1992
01:44:00,450 --> 01:43:57,930
just by me but by people who had

1993
01:44:03,090 --> 01:44:00,460
million-dollar type of equipment at

1994
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:03,100
government laboratories so different

1995
01:44:08,370 --> 01:44:06,010
times where you can narrow down to the

1996
01:44:10,620 --> 01:44:08,380
individual Grif film grains well Bruce

1997
01:44:11,550 --> 01:44:10,630
we're out of I hate to cut in on you but

1998
01:44:13,380 --> 01:44:11,560
we're out of time

1999
01:44:18,480 --> 01:44:13,390
and I want to thank you so much for

2000
01:44:21,690 --> 01:44:18,490
being on the show tonight all right you

2001
01:44:24,390 --> 01:44:21,700
take care and I'll talk to you soon yeah

2002
01:44:25,950 --> 01:44:24,400
okay all right everyone so that's it for

2003
01:44:28,260 --> 01:44:25,960
the show tonight thank you so much for

2004
01:44:30,930 --> 01:44:28,270
listening we'll be back next week but I

2005
01:44:32,810 --> 01:44:30,940
won't be it's gonna be a rerun again

2006
01:44:36,480 --> 01:44:32,820
sorry I can't make it there's just no

2007
01:44:38,430 --> 01:44:36,490
absolutely no way I can make it so thank

2008
01:45:14,790 --> 01:44:38,440
you all for listening and remember to

2009
01:45:17,730 --> 01:45:16,080
if you're still listening on YouTube